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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3489 Pale Fire Canto 4
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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 12:00 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3489
>
> pynchon-l-digest Thursday, August 14 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3489
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:47:21 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Canto 4 - Notes
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > Before reading his _Magic of Artistic Discovery_, my belief was that it
was a
> simple correlation between the Butterfly of Doom warning of death and
Sybil
> warning of Kinbote, but Boyd takes it much further. Let's see if I can
avoid
> screwing this up (he does a great dissection in the book, too long to
quote):
>
> An online article by Boyd, shorter than his book but covering similar
> territory, can be found here:
>
> http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/forians.htm
>
> Shade and Shape in Pale Fire*
> by Brian Boyd
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:05:54 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF shades and Dante
>
> If memory serves me, the "shades" referred specifically to the souls of
> Circle One: Limbo, the location of the virtuous pagans (e.g. Homer, Ovid,
> Horace, and, of course, Virgil). Since the ancient Greek and Roman
> underworlds referred to the souls of the dead as "shades" (cf. _The
> Odyssey_, Book 11 and _The Aeneid_, Book 6), Dante reinforces this concept
> by portraying the souls of these pagans likewise as shades.
>
> In most other circles of Dante's Inferno, the souls are referred to as
> "souls" (and I'm going by my memory of the Ciardi, Musa, and Mandelbaum
> translations) , even in the case of the Wood of the Suicides (_Inferno_,
> Canto 13).
>
> For what that's worth ...
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 1:08 PM
> Subject: Re: NPPF shades and Dante
>
>
> >
> > Anyone hip to the shades in Dante's Inferno? These are the souls of
> > suicides........It will take me much to long to get to that passage at
the
> > rate I'm working.....
> >
> > love,
> > cfa
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:34:12 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: move the Pale Fire discussison somewhere else
>
> I've been reading along with PF but not posting much, unfortunately.
> However, my two-cents worth:
>
> 1. I still enjoy reading the PF posts in that they help "guide" my
reading
> of the novel to certain degree, but
>
> 2. I remain woefully disappointed in the lack of Pynchon-related context
> throughout this read, despite the assurances early in June that such
> connections would be "inevitable."
>
> I realize a few folks have gotten caught up in annotating the various and
> sundry components of the novel itself, not to mention the scholarly
> exploration of the incest motif (which I hope to see published some day,
> Keith!!). But, to be frank, I see little justification for the existence
of
> the PF read in this particular forum.
>
> Here's hoping someone proves me wrong.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:50:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:14:02 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: move the Pale Fire discussison somewhere else
>
> I think the PF read has done a wonderful job so far. Never said it was
> deficient in its analysis of Nabakov as a writer or as a scholar. Many of
> the threads have proven useful to me as I plan to teach the novel later
this
> year. I find the incest motif compelling and look forward to the further
> developments of the group (and Keith, whose "baby" this seems to be).
and,
> as noted, the reading has helped guide my own encounter with the novel
this
> time through.
>
> However, enough listers mentioned back in June that "a PF read would
enhance
> our understanding of Pynchon" that it does indeed justify my assertion.
> However, since Quail and I went around regarding this some time ago and I
> prefer nor to do so again, I invite you to search the archives and see for
> yourself. The proof's there. And if you choose not to, so be it; but
don't
> say I didn't direct you to my substantiating posts.
>
> >
> > No such promises were ever made by the majority of those who signed on,
>
> Sure they were, by several listers. Search the archives and you'll see at
> least ten such references.
>
> > nor
> > should there have been,
>
> I beg to differ. In a Pynchon-focussed forum, it *should* be
> Pynchon-related. But, again, I'm not willing to spar in this fight again.
> I've stated my position here before.
>
> though some have used this logic to try to beat the PF
> > read into the ground.
>
> Stop trying to turn this into some ridiculously cosmic US vs. THEM thing,
> David. I have no axe to grind with a Nabakov read. You know this.
>
> > No one ever appointed you to the position of P-list nanny, so forgive us
> if we
> > ignore your above judgement. Why you feel such judgements are worthy of
> our
> > consideration is a mystery. If the owners of this list objected to this
> > reading they've had ample oppurtunity to say so. So far, not a peep.
>
> I never said I was appointed list nanny, nor did I appoint myself such.
As
> I noted, it's my opinion on the matter. Since you have little use for my
> opinion, David Morris, I encourage you to ignore my posts. Thanks in
> advance.
>
> >
> > This Pale Fire reading is doing marvelously and should rather be
garnering
> your
> > praises.
>
> It is, and it did.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim Strzechowski
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3489
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 12:00 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3489
>
> pynchon-l-digest Thursday, August 14 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3489
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:47:21 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Canto 4 - Notes
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > Before reading his _Magic of Artistic Discovery_, my belief was that it
was a
> simple correlation between the Butterfly of Doom warning of death and
Sybil
> warning of Kinbote, but Boyd takes it much further. Let's see if I can
avoid
> screwing this up (he does a great dissection in the book, too long to
quote):
>
> An online article by Boyd, shorter than his book but covering similar
> territory, can be found here:
>
> http://www.libraries.psu.edu/nabokov/forians.htm
>
> Shade and Shape in Pale Fire*
> by Brian Boyd
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:05:54 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF shades and Dante
>
> If memory serves me, the "shades" referred specifically to the souls of
> Circle One: Limbo, the location of the virtuous pagans (e.g. Homer, Ovid,
> Horace, and, of course, Virgil). Since the ancient Greek and Roman
> underworlds referred to the souls of the dead as "shades" (cf. _The
> Odyssey_, Book 11 and _The Aeneid_, Book 6), Dante reinforces this concept
> by portraying the souls of these pagans likewise as shades.
>
> In most other circles of Dante's Inferno, the souls are referred to as
> "souls" (and I'm going by my memory of the Ciardi, Musa, and Mandelbaum
> translations) , even in the case of the Wood of the Suicides (_Inferno_,
> Canto 13).
>
> For what that's worth ...
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 1:08 PM
> Subject: Re: NPPF shades and Dante
>
>
> >
> > Anyone hip to the shades in Dante's Inferno? These are the souls of
> > suicides........It will take me much to long to get to that passage at
the
> > rate I'm working.....
> >
> > love,
> > cfa
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:34:12 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: move the Pale Fire discussison somewhere else
>
> I've been reading along with PF but not posting much, unfortunately.
> However, my two-cents worth:
>
> 1. I still enjoy reading the PF posts in that they help "guide" my
reading
> of the novel to certain degree, but
>
> 2. I remain woefully disappointed in the lack of Pynchon-related context
> throughout this read, despite the assurances early in June that such
> connections would be "inevitable."
>
> I realize a few folks have gotten caught up in annotating the various and
> sundry components of the novel itself, not to mention the scholarly
> exploration of the incest motif (which I hope to see published some day,
> Keith!!). But, to be frank, I see little justification for the existence
of
> the PF read in this particular forum.
>
> Here's hoping someone proves me wrong.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:50:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:14:02 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: move the Pale Fire discussison somewhere else
>
> I think the PF read has done a wonderful job so far. Never said it was
> deficient in its analysis of Nabakov as a writer or as a scholar. Many of
> the threads have proven useful to me as I plan to teach the novel later
this
> year. I find the incest motif compelling and look forward to the further
> developments of the group (and Keith, whose "baby" this seems to be).
and,
> as noted, the reading has helped guide my own encounter with the novel
this
> time through.
>
> However, enough listers mentioned back in June that "a PF read would
enhance
> our understanding of Pynchon" that it does indeed justify my assertion.
> However, since Quail and I went around regarding this some time ago and I
> prefer nor to do so again, I invite you to search the archives and see for
> yourself. The proof's there. And if you choose not to, so be it; but
don't
> say I didn't direct you to my substantiating posts.
>
> >
> > No such promises were ever made by the majority of those who signed on,
>
> Sure they were, by several listers. Search the archives and you'll see at
> least ten such references.
>
> > nor
> > should there have been,
>
> I beg to differ. In a Pynchon-focussed forum, it *should* be
> Pynchon-related. But, again, I'm not willing to spar in this fight again.
> I've stated my position here before.
>
> though some have used this logic to try to beat the PF
> > read into the ground.
>
> Stop trying to turn this into some ridiculously cosmic US vs. THEM thing,
> David. I have no axe to grind with a Nabakov read. You know this.
>
> > No one ever appointed you to the position of P-list nanny, so forgive us
> if we
> > ignore your above judgement. Why you feel such judgements are worthy of
> our
> > consideration is a mystery. If the owners of this list objected to this
> > reading they've had ample oppurtunity to say so. So far, not a peep.
>
> I never said I was appointed list nanny, nor did I appoint myself such.
As
> I noted, it's my opinion on the matter. Since you have little use for my
> opinion, David Morris, I encourage you to ignore my posts. Thanks in
> advance.
>
> >
> > This Pale Fire reading is doing marvelously and should rather be
garnering
> your
> > praises.
>
> It is, and it did.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim Strzechowski
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3489
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.