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Fw: Fw: Fw: Fw: The Russian Lolita
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>
To: "Vladimir Nabokov Forum" <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Fw: The Russian Lolita
> This message was originally submitted by jerry_friedman@YAHOO.COM to
the
> NABOKV-L list at LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU. If you simply forward it back to the
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> using a mail command that generates "Resent-" fields (ask your local
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> support or consult the documentation of your mail program if in doubt), it
will
> be distributed and the explanations you are now reading will be
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> automatically. If on the other hand you edit the contributions you receive
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> a digest, you will have to remove this paragraph manually. Finally, you
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> be able to contact the author of this message by using the normal
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>
> ---------------- Message requiring your approval (112
lines) ------------------
> Probably someone has said this already--but I agree with Jamie
> Olson that "the trip down the palate" is based on Russian
> pronunciation (from what little I understand of it). In my
> American English, though, the movement is the other way. The
> first tongue tap is against the lower part of the upper
> incisors, the second is against the upper part, and the third
> is against the hard palate, possibly with slight contact with
> the teeth.
>
> From what little I understand of Spanish and Italian
> pronunciation, those languages have no equivalent of the Russian
> hard "l". (A Russian, okay, a Jewish emigrant from Ukraine,
> told me once that all "l"s in Italian are soft.) So speakers of
> Spanish and Italian may have the "necessary note", but they don't
> have the "trip". I think all three of their taps would be at
> very nearly the same place.
>
> To me (and I suspect to speakers of Spanish and Italian), the
> first "l" in a Russian "Lolita" is even heavier and clammier than
> its English equivalent, but that's the one required as the first
> step for the trip down the palate.
>
> Now did VN mean an American "lollipop", with an "ah" sound in the
> first syllable much like that in a Russian "Lolita", or an English
> RP "lollipop", with an "o" sound much like that of a Spanish
> "Lolita"? (Apologies to Americans from eastern New England who
> have an RP-style "short o".) Or am I confused? And what was
> Humbert's English pronunciation like?
>
> Jerry Friedman
>
> --- "D. Barton Johnson" <chtodel@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jamie L. Olson
> > To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: The Russian Lolita
> >
> >
> > Our listserv editor is certainly correct in arguing that "the aesthetic
> > effect of the alliterative 'l's and 'f's and the internal rhymes of
> > 'light of my life, fire of my loins'" (much of which derives from the
> > name of Lolita herself: Lo-LIT-a --> light, etc.; the subsequent series
> > of alliterating 't's also stems from her tender name) is absent in the
> > Russian, but I would argue that VN in this passage is coaching his
> > English-speaking readers in Russian pronunciation.
> >
> > Further evidence for this can be found in an interview with _Playboy_ in
> > January of 1964, reprinted in _Strong Opionions_: "For my nymphet I
> > needed a diminuitive with a lyrical lilt to it. One of the most limpid
> > and luminous letters is 'L'. The suffix '-ita' has a lot of Latin
> > tenderness, and this I required too. Hence: Lolita. However, it should
> > not be pronounced as you and most Americans pronounce it: Low-lee-ta,
> > with a heavy, clammy 'L' and a long 'o'. No, the first syllable should
> > be as in 'lollipop', the 'L' liquid and delicate, the 'lee' not too
> > sharp. Spaniards and Italians pronounce it, of course, with exactly the
> > necessary note of archness and caress" (SO [Vintage 1990], p. 25).
> >
> > Though VN calls on latinate languages for the above description, this is
> > his roundabout way of getting his readers to adopt the Russian
> > pronunciation of 'Lolita'. My own opinion is that the worst sin in
> > mispronouncing her name is the American tendency to convert the light
> > 'T' to a dull 'D'.
> >
> > For further associative references in this passage, one might look to
> > Alfred Appel's notes in _The Annotated Lolita_.
> >
> > Jamie L. Olson
> >
> > At 10:20 AM 08/06/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> > EDNOTE. As far as the name LOLITA goes, the equivalence is only
> > approximate since the articulatory position of the tongue is slightly
> > different in Russian & English. In the remaining the differences are
> > greater, e.g., "svet moei zhizni, ogon' moix chresl" does not really
> > approach the aesthetic effect of the alliterative "l"s and "f"s and the
> > internal rhymes of "light of my life, fire of my loins." Multiply this
> > sort of thing by tens of thousands of cases in comparing original and
> > translated texts and you will see that the aesthetic experience is very
> > different in the two versions.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jamie L. Olson
> > To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 9:34 AM
> > Subject: Re: Fw: The Russian Lolita
> >
> > As can be seen from a comparison of the opening passages (after Ray's
> > foreword) of _Lolita_ in English and in Russian, the tongue does perform
> > precisely the same tricks for both sets of readers:
> >
> > "Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul.
> > Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the
> > palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta."
> >
> > «Ëîëèòà, ñâåò ìîåé æèçíè, îãîíü ìîèõ ÷ðåñåë. Ãðåõ ìîé, äóøà ìîÿ.
> > Ëî-ëè-òà: êîí÷èê ÿçûêà ñîâåðøàåò ïóòü â òðè øàæêà âíèç ïî í¸áó, ÷òîáû íà
> > òðåòüåì òîëêíóòüñÿ î çóáû. Ëî. Ëè. Òà.»
> >
> > Transcription of Russian: "Lolita, svet moej zhizni, ogon' moikh
> > chresel.. Grekh moj, dusha moja. Lo-li-ta: konchik jazyka sovershaet
> > put' v tri shazhka vniz po njobu, chtoby na tret'em tolknut'cja o zuby.
> > Lo. Li. Ta."
> >
> > Jamie L. Olson
> ....
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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From: "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>
To: "Vladimir Nabokov Forum" <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Fw: The Russian Lolita
> This message was originally submitted by jerry_friedman@YAHOO.COM to
the
> NABOKV-L list at LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU. If you simply forward it back to the
list,
> using a mail command that generates "Resent-" fields (ask your local
user
> support or consult the documentation of your mail program if in doubt), it
will
> be distributed and the explanations you are now reading will be
removed
> automatically. If on the other hand you edit the contributions you receive
into
> a digest, you will have to remove this paragraph manually. Finally, you
should
> be able to contact the author of this message by using the normal
"reply"
> function of your mail program.
>
> ---------------- Message requiring your approval (112
lines) ------------------
> Probably someone has said this already--but I agree with Jamie
> Olson that "the trip down the palate" is based on Russian
> pronunciation (from what little I understand of it). In my
> American English, though, the movement is the other way. The
> first tongue tap is against the lower part of the upper
> incisors, the second is against the upper part, and the third
> is against the hard palate, possibly with slight contact with
> the teeth.
>
> From what little I understand of Spanish and Italian
> pronunciation, those languages have no equivalent of the Russian
> hard "l". (A Russian, okay, a Jewish emigrant from Ukraine,
> told me once that all "l"s in Italian are soft.) So speakers of
> Spanish and Italian may have the "necessary note", but they don't
> have the "trip". I think all three of their taps would be at
> very nearly the same place.
>
> To me (and I suspect to speakers of Spanish and Italian), the
> first "l" in a Russian "Lolita" is even heavier and clammier than
> its English equivalent, but that's the one required as the first
> step for the trip down the palate.
>
> Now did VN mean an American "lollipop", with an "ah" sound in the
> first syllable much like that in a Russian "Lolita", or an English
> RP "lollipop", with an "o" sound much like that of a Spanish
> "Lolita"? (Apologies to Americans from eastern New England who
> have an RP-style "short o".) Or am I confused? And what was
> Humbert's English pronunciation like?
>
> Jerry Friedman
>
> --- "D. Barton Johnson" <chtodel@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jamie L. Olson
> > To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 12:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: The Russian Lolita
> >
> >
> > Our listserv editor is certainly correct in arguing that "the aesthetic
> > effect of the alliterative 'l's and 'f's and the internal rhymes of
> > 'light of my life, fire of my loins'" (much of which derives from the
> > name of Lolita herself: Lo-LIT-a --> light, etc.; the subsequent series
> > of alliterating 't's also stems from her tender name) is absent in the
> > Russian, but I would argue that VN in this passage is coaching his
> > English-speaking readers in Russian pronunciation.
> >
> > Further evidence for this can be found in an interview with _Playboy_ in
> > January of 1964, reprinted in _Strong Opionions_: "For my nymphet I
> > needed a diminuitive with a lyrical lilt to it. One of the most limpid
> > and luminous letters is 'L'. The suffix '-ita' has a lot of Latin
> > tenderness, and this I required too. Hence: Lolita. However, it should
> > not be pronounced as you and most Americans pronounce it: Low-lee-ta,
> > with a heavy, clammy 'L' and a long 'o'. No, the first syllable should
> > be as in 'lollipop', the 'L' liquid and delicate, the 'lee' not too
> > sharp. Spaniards and Italians pronounce it, of course, with exactly the
> > necessary note of archness and caress" (SO [Vintage 1990], p. 25).
> >
> > Though VN calls on latinate languages for the above description, this is
> > his roundabout way of getting his readers to adopt the Russian
> > pronunciation of 'Lolita'. My own opinion is that the worst sin in
> > mispronouncing her name is the American tendency to convert the light
> > 'T' to a dull 'D'.
> >
> > For further associative references in this passage, one might look to
> > Alfred Appel's notes in _The Annotated Lolita_.
> >
> > Jamie L. Olson
> >
> > At 10:20 AM 08/06/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> > EDNOTE. As far as the name LOLITA goes, the equivalence is only
> > approximate since the articulatory position of the tongue is slightly
> > different in Russian & English. In the remaining the differences are
> > greater, e.g., "svet moei zhizni, ogon' moix chresl" does not really
> > approach the aesthetic effect of the alliterative "l"s and "f"s and the
> > internal rhymes of "light of my life, fire of my loins." Multiply this
> > sort of thing by tens of thousands of cases in comparing original and
> > translated texts and you will see that the aesthetic experience is very
> > different in the two versions.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jamie L. Olson
> > To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 9:34 AM
> > Subject: Re: Fw: The Russian Lolita
> >
> > As can be seen from a comparison of the opening passages (after Ray's
> > foreword) of _Lolita_ in English and in Russian, the tongue does perform
> > precisely the same tricks for both sets of readers:
> >
> > "Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul.
> > Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the
> > palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta."
> >
> > «Ëîëèòà, ñâåò ìîåé æèçíè, îãîíü ìîèõ ÷ðåñåë. Ãðåõ ìîé, äóøà ìîÿ.
> > Ëî-ëè-òà: êîí÷èê ÿçûêà ñîâåðøàåò ïóòü â òðè øàæêà âíèç ïî í¸áó, ÷òîáû íà
> > òðåòüåì òîëêíóòüñÿ î çóáû. Ëî. Ëè. Òà.»
> >
> > Transcription of Russian: "Lolita, svet moej zhizni, ogon' moikh
> > chresel.. Grekh moj, dusha moja. Lo-li-ta: konchik jazyka sovershaet
> > put' v tri shazhka vniz po njobu, chtoby na tret'em tolknut'cja o zuby.
> > Lo. Li. Ta."
> >
> > Jamie L. Olson
> ....
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
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