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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3466 PALe fire cANTO 3
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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 8:37 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3466
>
> pynchon-l-digest Tuesday, August 5 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3466
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:37:55 +0200
> From: "Otto" <ottosell@yahoo.de>
> Subject: Re: Canto Three: Some Notes (1)
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 11:43 PM
> Subject: NPPF: Canto Three: Some Notes (1)
>
>
> > ln 531-532: "the trail of silver slime / Snails leave or flagstones": a
> > misprint? Is this different in other editions?
> >
>
> "the trail of silver slime / Snails leave on flagstones"
> (Penguin 2000)
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:18:16 +0200
> From: "Otto" <ottosell@yahoo.de>
> Subject: NPPF Canto Three: Some Notes (3)
>
>
> "Mars glowed" (681)
>
> Mars-Flares were seen first in 1894, and the author of the article =
> (first link) speculates whether these observations could have brought =
> H.G. Wells to write his novel "The War of the Worlds" (1897)
> http://freenet.meome.de/app/fn/artcont_portal_news_article.jsp/85351.html=
>
> http://www.sciberia.net/news/9925053498781.print.html
>
> In June 2001 Mars and Earth had the same astronomical position as in =
> 1958 when the flares had been seen the last time.
>
> "Based on their analysis, Dobbins and Sheehan predicted that flares like =
> those last reported in 1958 might erupt this week in Edom Promontorium, =
> near the Martian equator at longitude 345 degrees."=20
> http://www.earthchangestv.com/2001_secure/Breaking_News/June2001/0609mars=
> ..htm
> http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/ff_2501.htm
>
>>
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 06:37:57 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Canto Three: Some Notes (1)
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> >
> > That Goethe is quoted so earnestly while Eliot is parodied, I think says
> something about Shade's opinion about both of these authors.
>
> Thanks for finding all these references to other poems. But lets' ask
what
> good do they do for the poem or the novel. Isn't Shade denigrating his
own
> work by playing these games with others' poems? Do these other poems
> contribute anything to Pale Fire? Doesn't Kinbote criticize Shade for
> referencing other author's works in this poem?
>
> David Morris
>
>> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 06:40:36 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: NPPF - Canto Three: Hesperus
>
> http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Poetry/Wreck.htm
>
> "WRECK OF THE HESPERUS"
> It was the schooner Hesperus,
> That sailed the wintery sea;
> And the skipper had taken his little daughter,
> To bear him company.
>
> Blue were her eyes as the fairy flax,
> Her cheeks like the dawn of day,
> And her bosom white as the hawthorn buds,
> That ope in the month of May.
>
> The Skipper he stood beside the helm,
> His pipe was in his mouth,
> And he watched how the veering flaw did blow
> The smoke now West, now South.
>
> Then up and spake an old Sailor,
> Had sailed the Spanish Main,
> "I pray thee, put into yonder port,
> for I fear a hurricane.
>
> "Last night the moon had a golden ring,
> And to-night no moon we see!"
> The skipper, he blew whiff from his pipe,
> And a scornful laugh laughed he.
>
> Colder and louder blew the wind,
> A gale from the Northeast,
> The snow fell hissing in the brine,
> And the billows frothed like yeast.
>
> Down came the storm, and smote amain
> The vessel in its strength;
> The shuddered and paused, like a frighted steed,
> Then leaped her cable's length.
>
> "Come hither! come hither! my little daughter,
> And do not tremble so;
> For I can weather the roughest gale
> That ever wind did blow."
>
> He wrapped her warm in his seaman's coat
> Against the stinging blast;
> He cut a rope from a broken spar,
> And bound her to the mast.
>
> "O father! I hear the church bells ring,
> Oh, say, what may it be?"
> "Tis a fog-bell on a rock bound coast!" --
> And he steered for the open sea.
>
> "O father! I hear the sound of guns;
> Oh, say, what may it be?"
> Some ship in distress, that cannot live
> In such an angry sea!"
>
> "O father! I see a gleaming light.
> Oh say, what may it be?"
> But the father answered never a word,
> A frozen corpse was he.
>
> Lashed to the helm, all stiff and stark,
> With his face turned to the skies,
> The lantern gleamed through the gleaming snow
> On his fixed and glassy eyes.
>
> Then the maiden clasped her hands and prayed
> That saved she might be;
> And she thought of Christ, who stilled the wave,
> On the Lake of Galilee.
>
> And fast through the midnight dark and drear,
> Through the whistling sleet and snow,
> Like a sheeted ghost, the vessel swept
> Tow'rds the reef of Norman's Woe.
>
> And ever the fitful gusts between
> A sound came from the land;
> It was the sound of the trampling surf,
> On the rocks and hard sea-sand.
>
> The breakers were right beneath her bows,
> She drifted a dreary wreck,
> And a whooping billow swept the crew
> Like icicles from her deck.
>
> She struck where the white and fleecy waves
> Looked soft as carded wool,
> But the cruel rocks, they gored her side
> Like the horns of an angry bull.
>
> Her rattling shrouds, all sheathed in ice,
> With the masts went by the board;
> Like a vessel of glass, she stove and sank,
> Ho! ho! the breakers roared!
>
> At daybreak, on the bleak sea-beach,
> A fisherman stood aghast,
> To see the form of a maiden fair,
> Lashed close to a drifting mast.
>
> The salt sea was frozen on her breast,
> The salt tears in her eyes;
> And he saw her hair, like the brown sea-weed,
> On the billows fall and rise.
>
> Such was the wreck of the Hesperus,
> In the midnight and the snow!
> Christ save us all from a death like this,
> On the reef of Norman's Woe!
>
> By Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.
>
> ------------------------------
>> Date: 05 Aug 2003 10:52:17 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - The Big G
>
> On Mon, 2003-08-04 at 16:56, David Morris wrote:
> >
> > 549: ⌠While snubbing gods including the big G,■
> >
> > Why would this be a logical starting point for exploration into the
> > ⌠hereafter?■ If the intent was not to be partisan, that still wouldn▓t
rule
> > out some ⌠G■ or another. Kinbote▓s comments on the subject and his
reported
> > conversation with Shade on the subject show K at his most lucid and
insightful.
> > IPH▓s offhand rejection of God ignores Aquinas, which is at the heart
of K▓s
> > argument w/ Shade (although he attempts to quote Augustine). ((BTW, I▓m
just
> > barely conversant with these guys)). It is very interesting that the
> > possibilities IPH tries to prepare the newly minted ghost for do
parallel the
> > kind of afterlife K reasons is likely if there were no God-the-Designer.
It is
> > a torrent of currents and spiral eddies, a chaotic mix of ethereal
forces
> > without order.
> >
> > http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/a/aquinas.htm
> > Thomas Aquinas:
> > ⌠The greatest work of Thomas was the Summa and it is the fullest
presentation
> > of his views. [┘]This follows from the fivefold proof for the existence
of God;
> > namely, there must be a first mover, unmoved, a first cause in the chain
of
> > causes, an absolutely necessary being, an absolutely perfect being, and
a
> > rational designer.■
> >
> > Augustine:
> > ⌠In [Christian Doctrine] Augustine then states the essentials of
Christian
> > belief in God, with a most important preamble: God is ineffable, that
is, we
> > can say nothing truly meaningful about one who transcends the categories
of
> > human language.■
> >
> > I believe one of Aquinas▓ major points is that since God is unknowable
by human
> > means, ⌠Revelation■ is absolutely required, which means GOD has to do
the
> > unveiling of himself, not the other way around.
>
> Not exactly. Thomas Aquinas held that God can be known by natural
> reason. (revelation fills in the details)
>
> Augustine also.
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
> Date: 05 Aug 2003 11:55:05 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Canto Three: Some Notes (1)
>
> On Tue, 2003-08-05 at 09:37, David Morris wrote:
> >
> > --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > That Goethe is quoted so earnestly while Eliot is parodied, I think
says
> > something about Shade's opinion about both of these authors.
> >
> > Thanks for finding all these references to other poems. But lets' ask
what
> > good do they do for the poem or the novel. Isn't Shade denigrating his
own
> > work by playing these games with others' poems?
>
> Generally speaking great poets live on other great poets. Where would
> Milton be without King James?
>
>
> Do these other poems
> > contribute anything to Pale Fire?
>
> Yes, this is the question?
>
> Though not a poem pe se, Rabelais' "grand peut-etre" (big perhaps) does
> nicely set the stage for a comical romp (pynchonian one might say)
> through the myriad of ways the popular and theological imagination has
> tried to deal with what lies beyond? And L'if, in both its real and
> fractured French meanings, serves as reinforcement. Yewshade. A higher
> state.
>
>
>
> Goethe's poem is introduced at a time years later--years after John made
> his determination to look for meaning elsewhere than from theological
> text. The poem evokes love for a lost child. Very appropriate for the
> moment.
>
> Not sure about Poe.
>
>
>
>
> Doesn't Kinbote criticize Shade for
> > referencing other author's works in this poem
>
> But his criticism is far fetched.
>
> P.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> >
>
> __________________________________
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:36:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - The Big G
>
> http://www.bartleby.com/65/au/AugustnSt.html
>
> Augustine regarded all history as God▓s providential preparation of two
> mystical cities, one of God and one of the devil, to one or the other of
which
> all humankind will finally belong. His greatest purely dogmatic work is
"On the
> Trinity," but much of his theological teaching comes from his polemic
writings.
> His works against the Manichaeans, especially "Against Faustus" (his
Manichaean
> teacher), are important for the light they throw on this religion. Against
> Donatism St. Augustine directed two works, "On Baptism and On the
Correction of
> the Donatists," in which he formulated the idea, since then become part of
> Roman Catholicism, that the church▓s authority is the guarantee of the
> Christian faith, its own guarantee being the apostolic succession. 5
> The most important and vitriolic controversy in which St. Augustine was
> involved was his battle against Pelagianism. The Pelagians denied original
sin
> and the fall of humanity. The implication of this aroused Augustine, who
held
> that humanity was corrupt and helpless. From his writings the great
> controversies on grace proceed, and as professed followers of Augustine,
John
> Calvin and the Jansenists developed predestinarian theologies. Though
revering
> Augustine, many theologians have refused to accept his more extreme
statements
> on grace. Another of St. Augustine▓s important treatises, On the Work of
Monks,
> has been much used by monastics. He was also a supremely important
biblical
> exegete. His letters are numerous and revealing. His most important works
are
> available in translation.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3466
> ********************************
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 8:37 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3466
>
> pynchon-l-digest Tuesday, August 5 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3466
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:37:55 +0200
> From: "Otto" <ottosell@yahoo.de>
> Subject: Re: Canto Three: Some Notes (1)
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 11:43 PM
> Subject: NPPF: Canto Three: Some Notes (1)
>
>
> > ln 531-532: "the trail of silver slime / Snails leave or flagstones": a
> > misprint? Is this different in other editions?
> >
>
> "the trail of silver slime / Snails leave on flagstones"
> (Penguin 2000)
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:18:16 +0200
> From: "Otto" <ottosell@yahoo.de>
> Subject: NPPF Canto Three: Some Notes (3)
>
>
> "Mars glowed" (681)
>
> Mars-Flares were seen first in 1894, and the author of the article =
> (first link) speculates whether these observations could have brought =
> H.G. Wells to write his novel "The War of the Worlds" (1897)
> http://freenet.meome.de/app/fn/artcont_portal_news_article.jsp/85351.html=
>
> http://www.sciberia.net/news/9925053498781.print.html
>
> In June 2001 Mars and Earth had the same astronomical position as in =
> 1958 when the flares had been seen the last time.
>
> "Based on their analysis, Dobbins and Sheehan predicted that flares like =
> those last reported in 1958 might erupt this week in Edom Promontorium, =
> near the Martian equator at longitude 345 degrees."=20
> http://www.earthchangestv.com/2001_secure/Breaking_News/June2001/0609mars=
> ..htm
> http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/ff_2501.htm
>
>>
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 06:37:57 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Canto Three: Some Notes (1)
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> >
> > That Goethe is quoted so earnestly while Eliot is parodied, I think says
> something about Shade's opinion about both of these authors.
>
> Thanks for finding all these references to other poems. But lets' ask
what
> good do they do for the poem or the novel. Isn't Shade denigrating his
own
> work by playing these games with others' poems? Do these other poems
> contribute anything to Pale Fire? Doesn't Kinbote criticize Shade for
> referencing other author's works in this poem?
>
> David Morris
>
>> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 06:40:36 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: NPPF - Canto Three: Hesperus
>
> http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Poetry/Wreck.htm
>
> "WRECK OF THE HESPERUS"
> It was the schooner Hesperus,
> That sailed the wintery sea;
> And the skipper had taken his little daughter,
> To bear him company.
>
> Blue were her eyes as the fairy flax,
> Her cheeks like the dawn of day,
> And her bosom white as the hawthorn buds,
> That ope in the month of May.
>
> The Skipper he stood beside the helm,
> His pipe was in his mouth,
> And he watched how the veering flaw did blow
> The smoke now West, now South.
>
> Then up and spake an old Sailor,
> Had sailed the Spanish Main,
> "I pray thee, put into yonder port,
> for I fear a hurricane.
>
> "Last night the moon had a golden ring,
> And to-night no moon we see!"
> The skipper, he blew whiff from his pipe,
> And a scornful laugh laughed he.
>
> Colder and louder blew the wind,
> A gale from the Northeast,
> The snow fell hissing in the brine,
> And the billows frothed like yeast.
>
> Down came the storm, and smote amain
> The vessel in its strength;
> The shuddered and paused, like a frighted steed,
> Then leaped her cable's length.
>
> "Come hither! come hither! my little daughter,
> And do not tremble so;
> For I can weather the roughest gale
> That ever wind did blow."
>
> He wrapped her warm in his seaman's coat
> Against the stinging blast;
> He cut a rope from a broken spar,
> And bound her to the mast.
>
> "O father! I hear the church bells ring,
> Oh, say, what may it be?"
> "Tis a fog-bell on a rock bound coast!" --
> And he steered for the open sea.
>
> "O father! I hear the sound of guns;
> Oh, say, what may it be?"
> Some ship in distress, that cannot live
> In such an angry sea!"
>
> "O father! I see a gleaming light.
> Oh say, what may it be?"
> But the father answered never a word,
> A frozen corpse was he.
>
> Lashed to the helm, all stiff and stark,
> With his face turned to the skies,
> The lantern gleamed through the gleaming snow
> On his fixed and glassy eyes.
>
> Then the maiden clasped her hands and prayed
> That saved she might be;
> And she thought of Christ, who stilled the wave,
> On the Lake of Galilee.
>
> And fast through the midnight dark and drear,
> Through the whistling sleet and snow,
> Like a sheeted ghost, the vessel swept
> Tow'rds the reef of Norman's Woe.
>
> And ever the fitful gusts between
> A sound came from the land;
> It was the sound of the trampling surf,
> On the rocks and hard sea-sand.
>
> The breakers were right beneath her bows,
> She drifted a dreary wreck,
> And a whooping billow swept the crew
> Like icicles from her deck.
>
> She struck where the white and fleecy waves
> Looked soft as carded wool,
> But the cruel rocks, they gored her side
> Like the horns of an angry bull.
>
> Her rattling shrouds, all sheathed in ice,
> With the masts went by the board;
> Like a vessel of glass, she stove and sank,
> Ho! ho! the breakers roared!
>
> At daybreak, on the bleak sea-beach,
> A fisherman stood aghast,
> To see the form of a maiden fair,
> Lashed close to a drifting mast.
>
> The salt sea was frozen on her breast,
> The salt tears in her eyes;
> And he saw her hair, like the brown sea-weed,
> On the billows fall and rise.
>
> Such was the wreck of the Hesperus,
> In the midnight and the snow!
> Christ save us all from a death like this,
> On the reef of Norman's Woe!
>
> By Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.
>
> ------------------------------
>> Date: 05 Aug 2003 10:52:17 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - The Big G
>
> On Mon, 2003-08-04 at 16:56, David Morris wrote:
> >
> > 549: ⌠While snubbing gods including the big G,■
> >
> > Why would this be a logical starting point for exploration into the
> > ⌠hereafter?■ If the intent was not to be partisan, that still wouldn▓t
rule
> > out some ⌠G■ or another. Kinbote▓s comments on the subject and his
reported
> > conversation with Shade on the subject show K at his most lucid and
insightful.
> > IPH▓s offhand rejection of God ignores Aquinas, which is at the heart
of K▓s
> > argument w/ Shade (although he attempts to quote Augustine). ((BTW, I▓m
just
> > barely conversant with these guys)). It is very interesting that the
> > possibilities IPH tries to prepare the newly minted ghost for do
parallel the
> > kind of afterlife K reasons is likely if there were no God-the-Designer.
It is
> > a torrent of currents and spiral eddies, a chaotic mix of ethereal
forces
> > without order.
> >
> > http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/a/aquinas.htm
> > Thomas Aquinas:
> > ⌠The greatest work of Thomas was the Summa and it is the fullest
presentation
> > of his views. [┘]This follows from the fivefold proof for the existence
of God;
> > namely, there must be a first mover, unmoved, a first cause in the chain
of
> > causes, an absolutely necessary being, an absolutely perfect being, and
a
> > rational designer.■
> >
> > Augustine:
> > ⌠In [Christian Doctrine] Augustine then states the essentials of
Christian
> > belief in God, with a most important preamble: God is ineffable, that
is, we
> > can say nothing truly meaningful about one who transcends the categories
of
> > human language.■
> >
> > I believe one of Aquinas▓ major points is that since God is unknowable
by human
> > means, ⌠Revelation■ is absolutely required, which means GOD has to do
the
> > unveiling of himself, not the other way around.
>
> Not exactly. Thomas Aquinas held that God can be known by natural
> reason. (revelation fills in the details)
>
> Augustine also.
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
> Date: 05 Aug 2003 11:55:05 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Canto Three: Some Notes (1)
>
> On Tue, 2003-08-05 at 09:37, David Morris wrote:
> >
> > --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > That Goethe is quoted so earnestly while Eliot is parodied, I think
says
> > something about Shade's opinion about both of these authors.
> >
> > Thanks for finding all these references to other poems. But lets' ask
what
> > good do they do for the poem or the novel. Isn't Shade denigrating his
own
> > work by playing these games with others' poems?
>
> Generally speaking great poets live on other great poets. Where would
> Milton be without King James?
>
>
> Do these other poems
> > contribute anything to Pale Fire?
>
> Yes, this is the question?
>
> Though not a poem pe se, Rabelais' "grand peut-etre" (big perhaps) does
> nicely set the stage for a comical romp (pynchonian one might say)
> through the myriad of ways the popular and theological imagination has
> tried to deal with what lies beyond? And L'if, in both its real and
> fractured French meanings, serves as reinforcement. Yewshade. A higher
> state.
>
>
>
> Goethe's poem is introduced at a time years later--years after John made
> his determination to look for meaning elsewhere than from theological
> text. The poem evokes love for a lost child. Very appropriate for the
> moment.
>
> Not sure about Poe.
>
>
>
>
> Doesn't Kinbote criticize Shade for
> > referencing other author's works in this poem
>
> But his criticism is far fetched.
>
> P.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> >
>
> __________________________________
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:36:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - The Big G
>
> http://www.bartleby.com/65/au/AugustnSt.html
>
> Augustine regarded all history as God▓s providential preparation of two
> mystical cities, one of God and one of the devil, to one or the other of
which
> all humankind will finally belong. His greatest purely dogmatic work is
"On the
> Trinity," but much of his theological teaching comes from his polemic
writings.
> His works against the Manichaeans, especially "Against Faustus" (his
Manichaean
> teacher), are important for the light they throw on this religion. Against
> Donatism St. Augustine directed two works, "On Baptism and On the
Correction of
> the Donatists," in which he formulated the idea, since then become part of
> Roman Catholicism, that the church▓s authority is the guarantee of the
> Christian faith, its own guarantee being the apostolic succession. 5
> The most important and vitriolic controversy in which St. Augustine was
> involved was his battle against Pelagianism. The Pelagians denied original
sin
> and the fall of humanity. The implication of this aroused Augustine, who
held
> that humanity was corrupt and helpless. From his writings the great
> controversies on grace proceed, and as professed followers of Augustine,
John
> Calvin and the Jansenists developed predestinarian theologies. Though
revering
> Augustine, many theologians have refused to accept his more extreme
statements
> on grace. Another of St. Augustine▓s important treatises, On the Work of
Monks,
> has been much used by monastics. He was also a supremely important
biblical
> exegete. His letters are numerous and revealing. His most important works
are
> available in translation.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3466
> ********************************