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Fw: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
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EDNOTE. GK prompts me to wonder somehing I should (but don't) know. Boyd may
supply the answer. Was the poem composed before, during, or after the
"Commentary"?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenny, Glenn" <gkenny@hfmus.com>
>
> ---------------- Message requiring your approval (164
lines) ------------------
> The first thing to remember is that, regardless of the illusion that the
> poem is a stand-alone work, it most manifestly is not. Kinbote's
insistence
> that the poem has no existence without the commentary is, in the context
of
> the novel, a kind of cruelty he inflicts on Shade's shade; but in the
> reality outside the novel, it's absolutely true! Add to that the fact that
> the poem is a pastiche-"one oozy footprint" behind Frost, but expressing a
> sensibility very much in tune with V.N.'s own ("I loathe such things as
> jazz," etc.)-and you have something that some might argue is not quite
> quantifiable on its own. But let's forget all that for the nonce. I think
it
> is an often very moving work, with an interesting cinematic quality (i.e.,
> the "intercutting" between the Shade's not-quite-channel surfing and
Hazel's
> journey to death) that isn't evident in the poets that Shade is based
on....
>
> GK
>
> > ----------
> > From: D. Barton Johnson
> > Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:24 AM
> > To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > Subject: Fw: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
> > > ---------------- Message requiring your approval (110
> > lines) ------------------
> > > Regardless of this I would still enjoyed reading the opions of others
> > about
> > > the poem's literary value - does Nabokov consider it a work of genius,
> > do
> > > youthe reader agree? I appreciate what you're saying Beau Shaw, and as
> > I've
> > > said, my opinion is already formed, however, were there nuances or
> > aspects
> > > of Pale Fire brought to my attention that has hitherto eluded me, that
> > > opinion may change (as it is based on little comparrison to other
> > poems).
> > > Thank you Dane Gill
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "D. Barton Johnson" <chtodel@cox.net>
> > > >Reply-To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > >To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > > >Subject: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > >Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:08:27 -0700
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Beau Shaw" <bs499@nyu.edu>
> > > >To: "Vladimir Nabokov Forum" <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > >Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:34 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > This message was originally submitted by bs499@NYU.EDU to the
> > NABOKV-L
> > > >list at
> > > > > LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU. If you simply forward it back to the list,
> > using
> > > >a
> > > >mail
> > > > > command that generates "Resent-" fields (ask your local user
support
> > or
> > > >consult
> > > > > the documentation of your mail program if in doubt), it will be
> > > >distributed and
> > > > > the explanations you are now reading will be removed
> > automatically.
> > If
> > > >on the
> > > > > other hand you edit the contributions you receive into a digest,
> > you
> > > >will
> > > >have
> > > > > to remove this paragraph manually. Finally, you should be able
to
> > > >contact the
> > > > > author of this message by using the normal "reply" function
of
> > > >your
> > > >mail
> > > > > program.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------- Message requiring your approval (53
> > > >lines) ------------------
> > > > > I don't think your opinion of Pale Fire (the poem) should be
> > "swayed"
> > by
> > > >our
> > > > > arguments! One does not "appreciate" literature (or anything for
> > that
> > > > > matter, I suppose) by being instructed that it's good or not.
Sapere
> > > >aude
> > > > > :)Personally, on repeated readings, it strikes me as more and more
> > > > > beautiful, and complex. -Beau Shaw
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: D. Barton Johnson <chtodel@cox.net>
> > > > > To: <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:05 PM
> > > > > Subject: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > ----------------- Message requiring your approval (24
> > > > > > lines) ------------------
> > > > > > > Greetings
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is the poem in the novel, Pale Fire, supposed to be a
> > demonstration
> > > >of
> > > > > > > poetic genuis? Is the poem itself a represntation of Shade's
> > > > > straitforward
> > > > > > > style, lacking in genuis, and just another indication of
> > Kinbote's
> > > > > > madness?
> > > > > > > I've discussed this before (not here) to no avail. Basically
> > what
> > > >I'm
> > > > > > asking
> > > > > > > is this: Did Nabokov himself think the poem Pale Fire was a
work
> > of
> > > > > > genius?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've read (references elude me now - but something tells me it
> > was
> > > >Boyd,
> > > > > > > though not sure) that Pale Fire was actually the best poetry
> > Nabokov
> > > > > could
> > > > > > > write. And as said in Strong Opinions, it was the most trouble
> > he's
> > > >ever
> > > > > > had
> > > > > > > with a piece of writing. I'm not very good at judging poetry
> > (almost
> > > > > never
> > > > > > > reading it) and certainly not ones this long (a novel in
verse?)
> > can
> > > > > only
> > > > > > > give an invalid opinion here. Plae Fire strikes me as somewhat
> > > > > > typical -the
> > > > > > > style, the rhyming scheem- it's been done many times before.
> > This
> > is
> > > > > > > something not present is Nabokov's novels (though he writes
very
> > > > > > poetical).
> > > > > > > As you have read, my opinion is weak and can easily be swayed
> > with
> > > >the
> > > > > > right
> > > > > > > arguments. This novel is so beautiful.
> > > > > > > Dane Gill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> > >
> >
supply the answer. Was the poem composed before, during, or after the
"Commentary"?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenny, Glenn" <gkenny@hfmus.com>
>
> ---------------- Message requiring your approval (164
lines) ------------------
> The first thing to remember is that, regardless of the illusion that the
> poem is a stand-alone work, it most manifestly is not. Kinbote's
insistence
> that the poem has no existence without the commentary is, in the context
of
> the novel, a kind of cruelty he inflicts on Shade's shade; but in the
> reality outside the novel, it's absolutely true! Add to that the fact that
> the poem is a pastiche-"one oozy footprint" behind Frost, but expressing a
> sensibility very much in tune with V.N.'s own ("I loathe such things as
> jazz," etc.)-and you have something that some might argue is not quite
> quantifiable on its own. But let's forget all that for the nonce. I think
it
> is an often very moving work, with an interesting cinematic quality (i.e.,
> the "intercutting" between the Shade's not-quite-channel surfing and
Hazel's
> journey to death) that isn't evident in the poets that Shade is based
on....
>
> GK
>
> > ----------
> > From: D. Barton Johnson
> > Reply To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 11:24 AM
> > To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > Subject: Fw: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
> > > ---------------- Message requiring your approval (110
> > lines) ------------------
> > > Regardless of this I would still enjoyed reading the opions of others
> > about
> > > the poem's literary value - does Nabokov consider it a work of genius,
> > do
> > > youthe reader agree? I appreciate what you're saying Beau Shaw, and as
> > I've
> > > said, my opinion is already formed, however, were there nuances or
> > aspects
> > > of Pale Fire brought to my attention that has hitherto eluded me, that
> > > opinion may change (as it is based on little comparrison to other
> > poems).
> > > Thank you Dane Gill
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "D. Barton Johnson" <chtodel@cox.net>
> > > >Reply-To: Vladimir Nabokov Forum <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > >To: NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU
> > > >Subject: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > >Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:08:27 -0700
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Beau Shaw" <bs499@nyu.edu>
> > > >To: "Vladimir Nabokov Forum" <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > >Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:34 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > This message was originally submitted by bs499@NYU.EDU to the
> > NABOKV-L
> > > >list at
> > > > > LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU. If you simply forward it back to the list,
> > using
> > > >a
> > > > > command that generates "Resent-" fields (ask your local user
support
> > or
> > > >consult
> > > > > the documentation of your mail program if in doubt), it will be
> > > >distributed and
> > > > > the explanations you are now reading will be removed
> > automatically.
> > If
> > > >on the
> > > > > other hand you edit the contributions you receive into a digest,
> > you
> > > >will
> > > >have
> > > > > to remove this paragraph manually. Finally, you should be able
to
> > > >contact the
> > > > > author of this message by using the normal "reply" function
of
> > > >your
> > > > > program.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------- Message requiring your approval (53
> > > >lines) ------------------
> > > > > I don't think your opinion of Pale Fire (the poem) should be
> > "swayed"
> > by
> > > >our
> > > > > arguments! One does not "appreciate" literature (or anything for
> > that
> > > > > matter, I suppose) by being instructed that it's good or not.
Sapere
> > > >aude
> > > > > :)Personally, on repeated readings, it strikes me as more and more
> > > > > beautiful, and complex. -Beau Shaw
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: D. Barton Johnson <chtodel@cox.net>
> > > > > To: <NABOKV-L@LISTSERV.UCSB.EDU>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:05 PM
> > > > > Subject: Fw: Pale Fire, the poem
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Dane Gill" <pennyparkerpark@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > ----------------- Message requiring your approval (24
> > > > > > lines) ------------------
> > > > > > > Greetings
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is the poem in the novel, Pale Fire, supposed to be a
> > demonstration
> > > >of
> > > > > > > poetic genuis? Is the poem itself a represntation of Shade's
> > > > > straitforward
> > > > > > > style, lacking in genuis, and just another indication of
> > Kinbote's
> > > > > > madness?
> > > > > > > I've discussed this before (not here) to no avail. Basically
> > what
> > > >I'm
> > > > > > asking
> > > > > > > is this: Did Nabokov himself think the poem Pale Fire was a
work
> > of
> > > > > > genius?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've read (references elude me now - but something tells me it
> > was
> > > >Boyd,
> > > > > > > though not sure) that Pale Fire was actually the best poetry
> > Nabokov
> > > > > could
> > > > > > > write. And as said in Strong Opinions, it was the most trouble
> > he's
> > > >ever
> > > > > > had
> > > > > > > with a piece of writing. I'm not very good at judging poetry
> > (almost
> > > > > never
> > > > > > > reading it) and certainly not ones this long (a novel in
verse?)
> > can
> > > > > only
> > > > > > > give an invalid opinion here. Plae Fire strikes me as somewhat
> > > > > > typical -the
> > > > > > > style, the rhyming scheem- it's been done many times before.
> > This
> > is
> > > > > > > something not present is Nabokov's novels (though he writes
very
> > > > > > poetical).
> > > > > > > As you have read, my opinion is weak and can easily be swayed
> > with
> > > >the
> > > > > > right
> > > > > > > arguments. This novel is so beautiful.
> > > > > > > Dane Gill
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> > >
> >