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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3441 PALE FIRE
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From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:34:38 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: CANTO ONE: doctor Colt
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: doctor Colt
> >
> > Why no capital 'D' for 'doctor Colt?'
> >
> > Why 'Colt?'
>
> Colt, a manufacturer of firearms since 1836.
>
> http://www.colt.com/CMCI/history.asp
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:53:30 -0700
> From: "Glenn Scheper" <glenn_scheper@earthlink.net>
> Subject: RE: AF and PF Canto One.
>
> > Has Dimitri seen this?
>
> What--Are we talking about Nabokov or Shade here?
>
> I know all sexuality is under interdiction. And AF/AC is
> an especial taboo.--I say for the fact that they are the
> sexuality of divinity. But who is more moral than Jesus?
>
> Further, I have not determined whether this knowledge is
> didactic, can be taught discursively, or only effective
> if biologically / quantum mechanically / enacted bodily.
> It is possible that one well-schooled could infer these
> same things from poets' and prophets' semi-veiled works.
>
> Further, I see a totalizing, re-reading, historicizing
> tendency of pattern-matching in some writers whose works
> do not display the complete range of decodable tantrika.
> So, when AF first opens the words of Jesus to re-reading,
> one wants to map all works onto this too-narrow referent.
>
> I think Baudelaire mentioning Lethe shew such ignorance,
> and many who ascribe androgyny to this state do err, for
> that is only after further steps. (See Heroic Alterity.)
>
> But another aspect of divinity appears to be conferred
> by an originary virginal very first nocturnal emmision
> irrigating the navel, which is the reward of innocence.
> (Cf. Buddha born of a lotus arising from Vishnu's navel,
> and Pynchon's Golden Screw joke.) From this state, one
> male can operate in all of the four normal male states,
> having a new type of self-as-parent-of-self redundancy.
>
> So while there will always remain culturally inculcated
> shame, there is no guilt in the fully cognizant abject.
>
> Yours truly,
> Glenn Scheper
> http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/
> glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net
> Copyleft(!) Forward freely.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:53:30 -0700
> From: "Glenn Scheper" <glenn_scheper@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> > I, for one, have a problem with 1881 suggesting "life"
> > only because the time between the two "walls"
> > of birth and death are hardly infinity
> > (much less infinity doubled/squared!).
>
> The figure didn't grab me, but as for a doubled infinity,
> I recall internet text about a theory drawing tubes from
> any number to zero, that proves that there is an infinity
> in the positive side of zero, and another infinity in the
> negative side of zero, which can only be done at zero for
> some reason. So zero might be like one's ever-present now.
>
> Yours truly,
> Glenn Scheper
> http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/
> glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net
> Copyleft(!) Forward freely.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:41:17 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: NP Steadman Does Some Of Your Favorites
>
> http://www.ralphsteadman.com/01etch.asp
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 08:15:09 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> on 24/7/03 11:54 PM, Malignd at malignd@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > You should bear this in mind when discussing VN's
> > (Shade's) poem. Your comment that "the series of
> > consonant blends creates a dissonant effect which, as
> > a soundscape, doesn't correlate in any way to the
> > scene or attempted mood," is "a rather subjective
> > judgement," although you apparently don't see it as
> > such. Noting the series of consonants is objective;
> > saying it doesn't correlate is not. Calling it corny,
> > certainly isn't.
> >
> > In large, I think your argument that VN intended
> > Shade's poem as less than grand is tenable, even
> > probable, certainly interesting, and quite
> > unavoidable. But I think the poem is often far better
> > than you allow and your addressing the argument as a
> > closed case, insisting the poem is simply second rate
> > and that such can be demonstrated as if with test tube
> > and caliper ... It's just hectoring.
>
> Not at all, or not intentionally. Charles's notion that "smudge"
correlates
> with "wax" (and thus "works") was what I was calling corny. You've offered
a
> different interpretation and then implied that I'm calling that corny.
(And,
> by the by, I've made no claim to objectivity in offering my responses to
the
> poem. If you don't want to read them you know what to do.) As to the
other:
> the phrase "smudge of ashen fluff" is a mouthful; the prosody of it stands
> out as such. My point is that it stands out to no legitimate effect in the
> context of Shade's opening setpiece. The image itself combines a smudge,
ash
> and fluff, which are three contrasting textures, three different material
> objects, which is why I've called it overwrought. Additionally, I think
it's
> pretty obvious that the second "I was ... " line after the semi-colon
refers
> to the remains of the bird on the windowpane, but you seem determined that
> your interpretation that it is a repetition of the poet envisioning
himself
> as the bird's shadow is certain. That difference of opinion is not
something
> we can resolve.
>
> I've made comments on several occasions that I think there are some nice
> moments in the poem. Nabokov's creation of Shade as a "major poet"
wouldn't
> ring true if he wrote like a grade schooler. That I'm pointing to some of
> the specific examples in the poem which gave me the impression that
> Nabokov's intent was to parody a style of poetry and satirise Shade the
poet
> and man is to be expected, surely? Particularly as it's a thesis which had
> been generally denounced as "nonsense". I'm not sure why it should prick
> your balloon so, as it doesn't diminish Nabokov's stature in the
slightest.
>
> best
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:30:39 EDT
> From: MalignD@aol.com
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> - --part1_1c8.d141b9d.2c51b80f_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>
> In a message dated 7/24/03 6:13:29 PM, jbor@bigpond.com writes:
>
>
> > <<Not at all, or not intentionally. Charles's notion that "smudge"
> > correlates with "wax" (and thus "works") was what I was calling corny.
You've offered
> > a different interpretation and then implied that I'm calling that
corny.>>
> >
> I don't have it in front of me, but I think you called Nabokov's prosody
> corny. If I misunderstood, fine.
>
> <<... but you seem determined that your interpretation that it is a
> repetition of the poet envisioning himself as the bird's shadow is
certain. That
> difference of opinion is not something we can resolve.
> >>
>
> I'm merely reading the poem. That seems to me the flow. I'm not
dropping
> anchor. That we can't resolve it seems a little dramatic.
>
> <<I've made comments on several occasions that I think there are some nice
> moments in the poem. Nabokov's creation of Shade as a "major poet"
wouldn't ring
> true if he wrote like a grade schooler. That I'm pointing to some of the
> specific examples in the poem which gave me the impression that Nabokov's
intent
> was to parody a style of poetry and satirise Shade the poet and man is to
be
> expected, surely? Particularly as it's a thesis which had been generally
> denounced as "nonsense". I'm not sure why it should prick your balloon so,
as it
> doesn't diminish Nabokov's stature in the slightest.>>
>
> I think I wrote (I don't have it before me; I email from 2 places) that I
> think your argument "probable." Whatever I wrote, I'm probably in
agreement
> with you; I think that VN plays with the quality of the poem. I just
don't
> agree with the way you're arguing; I'm pointing out that you seem to be
arguing
> from a certainty that isn't afforded you.
>
> Also, if you mean that the idea of the poem as of good quality is what has
> been generally been denounced as nonsense, we're certainly reading
different
> commentaries.
>
>
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:15:12 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Incest theme
>
> >>>at all yewsful?<<<
>
> Plus, wye is an anagram of yew.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:59:13 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Michael Joseph <mjoseph@rci.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Nabokov & Time
>
> Thanks for accepting the delay in response, Dave. The part of VN's text
> about time that seemed an exact match to Bergson's TIME AND FREE WILL
> follows immedately below, and then some stuff about Bergson follows that:
>
>
> > >
> > > We can imagine all kinds of time, such as for example
> > > "applied time"-- time applied to events, which we measure by
> > > means of clocks and calendars; but those types of time are
> > > inevitably tainted by our notion of space, spatial succession,
> > > stretches and sections of space.
>
> The quotation from HLB reads "... two possible conceptions of time, the
> one free from all alloy, the other surreptitiously bringing in the idea of
> space" (TIME AND FREE WILL 100). In this spatialized time sense, time is
> "conceived under the form of an unbounded and homogeneous medium" (99), in
> other words, history.
>
> Not only does VN repeat Bergson's idea, virtually exactly as Bergson
> expressed it, but his normatively inflected "tainted" seems to echo
> Bergson's "free from alloy."
>
> Perhaps Nabokov's other "contrapuntal" concepts have parallel affinities
> with Bergson's non-historical time. Bergson defines this concept in terms
> of "the heterogenous duration of the ego, without moments external to one
> another" (108). ("Heterogeneous duration" certainly sounds Nabokovian.)
> Bergson explains that when the human consciousness "refrains from
> separating its present state from its former states . . . it is enough
> that, in recalling these states, it does not set them alongside its actual
> state . . . but forms both the past and present states into an organic
> whole." (100)
>
> Rennie notes that this double time sense was seminal in Eliade's
> formulation of sacred time as characteristic of archetypal humanity (homo
> religiosus) and historical time as characteristic of modern humanity (homo
> faber). For archetypal humanity, rituals not only evoked the memory of the
> archetypal deeds of the gods, ancestors, first beings, creators, etc., but
> reactualized them. They were recalled and fused with the moment in which
> the rites were enacted. According to Eliade, the rites constituted an
> oscillation which annulled the baleful sense of historical time and
> reinstated sacred time.
>
> It would not be surprising to find that Nabokov's other "contrapuntal"
> concepts of time possess elements relating to Eliade's sacred, and, as I
> browse through my notes, I see the comparison between their novels and
> stories has been made that includes a consideration of their notions of
> time. In his essay "Wrestling with Time: Some Tendencies in Nabokov's and
> Eliade's Later Works," the Romanian scholar, Virgil Nemoianu noted,
> "Eliade and Vladimir Nabokov were both lifelong emigres; both are East
> Europeans. In consequence, the literary work of both is marked by an
> obsession with the injustice and destructiveness of historical Time which
> has wreaked havoc in their lives and in that of their family, class, or
> nation. THeir work can be seen as an attempt at a historical retaliation.
> [And thus that] in the struggle betweeen normal time and mythical time the
> first is usually the villain and more often than not the loser."
> (Southeastern Europe 7, no. 1 (1980): p. 82.)
>
>
> Michael
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:56:27 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Michael Joseph <mjoseph@rci.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: erratum: sorry/clumsy
>
> See I repeated the idea "Perhaps Nabokov's other "contrapuntal" concepts
> have parallel affinities with Bergson's non-historical time." Sorry to be
> so awkward in writing about Nabokov to this perspicacious group - my
> dribble-glass prose!
>
>
> Michael
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:24:54 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> on 25/7/03 8:30 AM, MalignD@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I don't have it in front of me, but I think you called Nabokov's prosody
> > corny.
>
> No, I didn't. The "wax" = "smudge" correlation is corny, and it is Shade's
> prosody which is off (imo).
>
> >> ... but you seem determined that your interpretation that it is a
repetition
> >> of the poet envisioning himself as the bird's shadow is certain.
That
> >> difference of opinion is not something we can resolve.
>
> >
> > I'm merely reading the poem. That seems to me the flow. I'm not
dropping
> > anchor. That we can't resolve it seems a little dramatic.
>
> Not at all. You say it reads as x, I say it reads as y. End of story.
>
> > I just don't agree with the way you're arguing; I'm pointing out that
you seem
> > to be arguing from a certainty that isn't afforded you.
>
> I'm arguing from the way I read the poem, in the context of the novel.
>
> > Also, if you mean that the idea of the poem as of good quality is what
has
> > been generally been denounced as nonsense, we're certainly reading
different
> > commentaries.
>
> No, this is pretty much the opposite of what I've been saying. Nabokov's
> poem is an entertaining and well-written parody and, as such, of "good
> quality"; Shade's poem, however, is bombastic and self-indulgent.
>
> best
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:06:09 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: "smudge of ashen fluff"
>
> on 25/7/03 8:15 AM, jbor wrote:
>
> > Charles's notion that "smudge" correlates
> > with "wax" (and thus "works") was what I was calling corny.
>
> Lest this be misunderstood: after Charles pointed it out I agree that
Shade
> probably intended a correlation between "smudge" and "wax". I didn't mean
> that Charles was being corny, but that Shade was in using a pun like this
in
> his description of the birdsplat. I think Shade uses "ashen" to describe
the
> colour and the main noun in the phrase is "fluff", and this describes the
> bits of feather which have stuck to the window.
>
> best
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:41:18 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4 some random notes
>
> > Ah, interesting connections between the two poems and the two Johns. And
> > of course there is also an additional linkage in the correspondence of
> > the two Charles's, which all goes to suggest the ontological stakes for
> > which VN is playing. Also sort of interesting, many Miltonists have
> > stumbled on the subject of why Milton would have made Satan so
> > attractive to readers. One of the more persistent arguments goes that
> > Milton hadn't intended anything of the sort, but he was carried away by
> > the power of poetry.
> >
> > Not the devil made me do it, but ...
> >
>
> Of course, it is essential that Milton "made Satan so attractive to
readers"
> because, from the beginning of the epic, the reader must be find something
> sympathetic in his characterization. The reader must be duped into
> believing what he says, so that the reader can experience a "Fall" similar
> to that of prelapsarian Mankind. And Stanley Fish goes to great lengths
to
> explain precisely how this occurs over the course of the epic poem. Part
of
> the irony in all this, as can be imagined, is the fact that the average
> reader *knows* the story and how the characters function within the
biblical
> narrative, yet the Miltonic bard sets the reader up perfectly for having
> such a lapse in Reason.
>
> I question whether the Shade poem -- without the Foreward and
> commentary --establishes a dynamic between poem and reader to a similar
> degree. As readers, we can read the poem "Pale Fire" separately, or in
> conjunction with the Kinbote contributions, but imo I don't see the Shade
> poem having much of an impact on the reader in and of itself; the poem
> achieves its greatness from the ways it is misinterpreted and mishandled
by
> the commentator. Likewise, there is more of a reader dynamic by way of
the
> Kinbote sections, which invite the reader to assess and judge poetic
intent
> (among other things).
>
> Shade's poem is good. Ironically, it's Kinbote's mishandling of the poem
> that makes it great.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:39:59 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: "smudge of ashen fluff"
>
> >>> I think Shade uses "ashen" to describe the
> colour and the main noun in the phrase is "fluff", and this describes the
> bits of feather which have stuck to the window. <<<
>
> I think Nabokov is caricaturizing the poem 'Pale Fire' with the phrase
> 'smudge of ashen fluff.'
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 02:06:09 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Kevin Troy <kevin@useless.net>
> Subject: NPPF: shagbark
>
> I just got back from vacation a few days ago, and have been catching up on
> my pynchon-l reading.
>
> I was struck by Don C.'s observations re: the location of New Wye, and his
> theory that it might be in central Virginia. The geography, as described
> by Don, adds up, but there are a lot of things about _Pale Fire_ that
> smack too strongly of New England and New York.
>
> For example, Shade calls the hickory tree in the yard a "shagbark." I've
> never heard this used by Virginians, so I checked the Dictionary of
> American Regional Expressions (DARE). Their entry for shagbark places it
> as a primarily New England term that spread west from there to the N.
> Central U.S. -- Wisconsin, Michigan, Indiana, etc.
>
> Now, Nabokov wasn't American, and (as far as I can tell w/out reading
> Boyd's American Years cover-to-cover) didn't spend as much time in
> Virginia as in other parts of the U.S., so it could be that he just made a
> mistake. (Recall, if you will, Pynchon's discussion, in the Slow Learner
> intro, of "showing off his ear" inappropriately.) But there are other
> things about New Wye that just seem too northeastern to me -- towns named
> "Exe" and "Lochanhead," large lakes that are ice-skateable, and a lack of
> distnictly southern flora (like dogwoods or magnolias). A-and I can't
> help but believe that Nabokov, if he were setting the book in
> Charlottesville, would manage to incorporate a dig at Faulkner -- UVA's
> writer-in-residence at the time Kinbote arrives in New Wye -- whom Nabokov
> frequently ridiculed.
>
> That said, Don is right -- the geography adds up to central Virginia.
> But I intend to argue, by and by (when we get to the commentary) that New
> Wye is no more real than Zembla. New Wye, Zembla, and Utana are three
> bubble worlds, fantasies that are connected to the real world (New York
> City, Copenhagen, Russia, etc.), but more strongly connected to each
> other. Not much unlike Vineland or San Narciso, really. The
> disorientation is deliberate, and makes New Wye stand out even more
> vividly than if it were a "real" fictional town.
>
> Looking forward to Canto Two and more VLVL, but first, some sleep.
>
> G'night,
> Kevin T.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3441
> ********************************
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:34:38 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: CANTO ONE: doctor Colt
>
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: doctor Colt
> >
> > Why no capital 'D' for 'doctor Colt?'
> >
> > Why 'Colt?'
>
> Colt, a manufacturer of firearms since 1836.
>
> http://www.colt.com/CMCI/history.asp
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:53:30 -0700
> From: "Glenn Scheper" <glenn_scheper@earthlink.net>
> Subject: RE: AF and PF Canto One.
>
> > Has Dimitri seen this?
>
> What--Are we talking about Nabokov or Shade here?
>
> I know all sexuality is under interdiction. And AF/AC is
> an especial taboo.--I say for the fact that they are the
> sexuality of divinity. But who is more moral than Jesus?
>
> Further, I have not determined whether this knowledge is
> didactic, can be taught discursively, or only effective
> if biologically / quantum mechanically / enacted bodily.
> It is possible that one well-schooled could infer these
> same things from poets' and prophets' semi-veiled works.
>
> Further, I see a totalizing, re-reading, historicizing
> tendency of pattern-matching in some writers whose works
> do not display the complete range of decodable tantrika.
> So, when AF first opens the words of Jesus to re-reading,
> one wants to map all works onto this too-narrow referent.
>
> I think Baudelaire mentioning Lethe shew such ignorance,
> and many who ascribe androgyny to this state do err, for
> that is only after further steps. (See Heroic Alterity.)
>
> But another aspect of divinity appears to be conferred
> by an originary virginal very first nocturnal emmision
> irrigating the navel, which is the reward of innocence.
> (Cf. Buddha born of a lotus arising from Vishnu's navel,
> and Pynchon's Golden Screw joke.) From this state, one
> male can operate in all of the four normal male states,
> having a new type of self-as-parent-of-self redundancy.
>
> So while there will always remain culturally inculcated
> shame, there is no guilt in the fully cognizant abject.
>
> Yours truly,
> Glenn Scheper
> http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/
> glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net
> Copyleft(!) Forward freely.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:53:30 -0700
> From: "Glenn Scheper" <glenn_scheper@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> > I, for one, have a problem with 1881 suggesting "life"
> > only because the time between the two "walls"
> > of birth and death are hardly infinity
> > (much less infinity doubled/squared!).
>
> The figure didn't grab me, but as for a doubled infinity,
> I recall internet text about a theory drawing tubes from
> any number to zero, that proves that there is an infinity
> in the positive side of zero, and another infinity in the
> negative side of zero, which can only be done at zero for
> some reason. So zero might be like one's ever-present now.
>
> Yours truly,
> Glenn Scheper
> http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_scheper/
> glenn_scheper + at + earthlink.net
> Copyleft(!) Forward freely.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:41:17 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: NP Steadman Does Some Of Your Favorites
>
> http://www.ralphsteadman.com/01etch.asp
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 08:15:09 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> on 24/7/03 11:54 PM, Malignd at malignd@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > You should bear this in mind when discussing VN's
> > (Shade's) poem. Your comment that "the series of
> > consonant blends creates a dissonant effect which, as
> > a soundscape, doesn't correlate in any way to the
> > scene or attempted mood," is "a rather subjective
> > judgement," although you apparently don't see it as
> > such. Noting the series of consonants is objective;
> > saying it doesn't correlate is not. Calling it corny,
> > certainly isn't.
> >
> > In large, I think your argument that VN intended
> > Shade's poem as less than grand is tenable, even
> > probable, certainly interesting, and quite
> > unavoidable. But I think the poem is often far better
> > than you allow and your addressing the argument as a
> > closed case, insisting the poem is simply second rate
> > and that such can be demonstrated as if with test tube
> > and caliper ... It's just hectoring.
>
> Not at all, or not intentionally. Charles's notion that "smudge"
correlates
> with "wax" (and thus "works") was what I was calling corny. You've offered
a
> different interpretation and then implied that I'm calling that corny.
(And,
> by the by, I've made no claim to objectivity in offering my responses to
the
> poem. If you don't want to read them you know what to do.) As to the
other:
> the phrase "smudge of ashen fluff" is a mouthful; the prosody of it stands
> out as such. My point is that it stands out to no legitimate effect in the
> context of Shade's opening setpiece. The image itself combines a smudge,
ash
> and fluff, which are three contrasting textures, three different material
> objects, which is why I've called it overwrought. Additionally, I think
it's
> pretty obvious that the second "I was ... " line after the semi-colon
refers
> to the remains of the bird on the windowpane, but you seem determined that
> your interpretation that it is a repetition of the poet envisioning
himself
> as the bird's shadow is certain. That difference of opinion is not
something
> we can resolve.
>
> I've made comments on several occasions that I think there are some nice
> moments in the poem. Nabokov's creation of Shade as a "major poet"
wouldn't
> ring true if he wrote like a grade schooler. That I'm pointing to some of
> the specific examples in the poem which gave me the impression that
> Nabokov's intent was to parody a style of poetry and satirise Shade the
poet
> and man is to be expected, surely? Particularly as it's a thesis which had
> been generally denounced as "nonsense". I'm not sure why it should prick
> your balloon so, as it doesn't diminish Nabokov's stature in the
slightest.
>
> best
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:30:39 EDT
> From: MalignD@aol.com
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> - --part1_1c8.d141b9d.2c51b80f_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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>
>
> In a message dated 7/24/03 6:13:29 PM, jbor@bigpond.com writes:
>
>
> > <<Not at all, or not intentionally. Charles's notion that "smudge"
> > correlates with "wax" (and thus "works") was what I was calling corny.
You've offered
> > a different interpretation and then implied that I'm calling that
corny.>>
> >
> I don't have it in front of me, but I think you called Nabokov's prosody
> corny. If I misunderstood, fine.
>
> <<... but you seem determined that your interpretation that it is a
> repetition of the poet envisioning himself as the bird's shadow is
certain. That
> difference of opinion is not something we can resolve.
> >>
>
> I'm merely reading the poem. That seems to me the flow. I'm not
dropping
> anchor. That we can't resolve it seems a little dramatic.
>
> <<I've made comments on several occasions that I think there are some nice
> moments in the poem. Nabokov's creation of Shade as a "major poet"
wouldn't ring
> true if he wrote like a grade schooler. That I'm pointing to some of the
> specific examples in the poem which gave me the impression that Nabokov's
intent
> was to parody a style of poetry and satirise Shade the poet and man is to
be
> expected, surely? Particularly as it's a thesis which had been generally
> denounced as "nonsense". I'm not sure why it should prick your balloon so,
as it
> doesn't diminish Nabokov's stature in the slightest.>>
>
> I think I wrote (I don't have it before me; I email from 2 places) that I
> think your argument "probable." Whatever I wrote, I'm probably in
agreement
> with you; I think that VN plays with the quality of the poem. I just
don't
> agree with the way you're arguing; I'm pointing out that you seem to be
arguing
> from a certainty that isn't afforded you.
>
> Also, if you mean that the idea of the poem as of good quality is what has
> been generally been denounced as nonsense, we're certainly reading
different
> commentaries.
>
>
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:15:12 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Incest theme
>
> >>>at all yewsful?<<<
>
> Plus, wye is an anagram of yew.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:59:13 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Michael Joseph <mjoseph@rci.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Nabokov & Time
>
> Thanks for accepting the delay in response, Dave. The part of VN's text
> about time that seemed an exact match to Bergson's TIME AND FREE WILL
> follows immedately below, and then some stuff about Bergson follows that:
>
>
> > >
> > > We can imagine all kinds of time, such as for example
> > > "applied time"-- time applied to events, which we measure by
> > > means of clocks and calendars; but those types of time are
> > > inevitably tainted by our notion of space, spatial succession,
> > > stretches and sections of space.
>
> The quotation from HLB reads "... two possible conceptions of time, the
> one free from all alloy, the other surreptitiously bringing in the idea of
> space" (TIME AND FREE WILL 100). In this spatialized time sense, time is
> "conceived under the form of an unbounded and homogeneous medium" (99), in
> other words, history.
>
> Not only does VN repeat Bergson's idea, virtually exactly as Bergson
> expressed it, but his normatively inflected "tainted" seems to echo
> Bergson's "free from alloy."
>
> Perhaps Nabokov's other "contrapuntal" concepts have parallel affinities
> with Bergson's non-historical time. Bergson defines this concept in terms
> of "the heterogenous duration of the ego, without moments external to one
> another" (108). ("Heterogeneous duration" certainly sounds Nabokovian.)
> Bergson explains that when the human consciousness "refrains from
> separating its present state from its former states . . . it is enough
> that, in recalling these states, it does not set them alongside its actual
> state . . . but forms both the past and present states into an organic
> whole." (100)
>
> Rennie notes that this double time sense was seminal in Eliade's
> formulation of sacred time as characteristic of archetypal humanity (homo
> religiosus) and historical time as characteristic of modern humanity (homo
> faber). For archetypal humanity, rituals not only evoked the memory of the
> archetypal deeds of the gods, ancestors, first beings, creators, etc., but
> reactualized them. They were recalled and fused with the moment in which
> the rites were enacted. According to Eliade, the rites constituted an
> oscillation which annulled the baleful sense of historical time and
> reinstated sacred time.
>
> It would not be surprising to find that Nabokov's other "contrapuntal"
> concepts of time possess elements relating to Eliade's sacred, and, as I
> browse through my notes, I see the comparison between their novels and
> stories has been made that includes a consideration of their notions of
> time. In his essay "Wrestling with Time: Some Tendencies in Nabokov's and
> Eliade's Later Works," the Romanian scholar, Virgil Nemoianu noted,
> "Eliade and Vladimir Nabokov were both lifelong emigres; both are East
> Europeans. In consequence, the literary work of both is marked by an
> obsession with the injustice and destructiveness of historical Time which
> has wreaked havoc in their lives and in that of their family, class, or
> nation. THeir work can be seen as an attempt at a historical retaliation.
> [And thus that] in the struggle betweeen normal time and mythical time the
> first is usually the villain and more often than not the loser."
> (Southeastern Europe 7, no. 1 (1980): p. 82.)
>
>
> Michael
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:56:27 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Michael Joseph <mjoseph@rci.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: erratum: sorry/clumsy
>
> See I repeated the idea "Perhaps Nabokov's other "contrapuntal" concepts
> have parallel affinities with Bergson's non-historical time." Sorry to be
> so awkward in writing about Nabokov to this perspicacious group - my
> dribble-glass prose!
>
>
> Michael
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:24:54 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> on 25/7/03 8:30 AM, MalignD@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I don't have it in front of me, but I think you called Nabokov's prosody
> > corny.
>
> No, I didn't. The "wax" = "smudge" correlation is corny, and it is Shade's
> prosody which is off (imo).
>
> >> ... but you seem determined that your interpretation that it is a
repetition
> >> of the poet envisioning himself as the bird's shadow is certain.
That
> >> difference of opinion is not something we can resolve.
>
> >
> > I'm merely reading the poem. That seems to me the flow. I'm not
dropping
> > anchor. That we can't resolve it seems a little dramatic.
>
> Not at all. You say it reads as x, I say it reads as y. End of story.
>
> > I just don't agree with the way you're arguing; I'm pointing out that
you seem
> > to be arguing from a certainty that isn't afforded you.
>
> I'm arguing from the way I read the poem, in the context of the novel.
>
> > Also, if you mean that the idea of the poem as of good quality is what
has
> > been generally been denounced as nonsense, we're certainly reading
different
> > commentaries.
>
> No, this is pretty much the opposite of what I've been saying. Nabokov's
> poem is an entertaining and well-written parody and, as such, of "good
> quality"; Shade's poem, however, is bombastic and self-indulgent.
>
> best
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:06:09 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: "smudge of ashen fluff"
>
> on 25/7/03 8:15 AM, jbor wrote:
>
> > Charles's notion that "smudge" correlates
> > with "wax" (and thus "works") was what I was calling corny.
>
> Lest this be misunderstood: after Charles pointed it out I agree that
Shade
> probably intended a correlation between "smudge" and "wax". I didn't mean
> that Charles was being corny, but that Shade was in using a pun like this
in
> his description of the birdsplat. I think Shade uses "ashen" to describe
the
> colour and the main noun in the phrase is "fluff", and this describes the
> bits of feather which have stuck to the window.
>
> best
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:41:18 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4 some random notes
>
> > Ah, interesting connections between the two poems and the two Johns. And
> > of course there is also an additional linkage in the correspondence of
> > the two Charles's, which all goes to suggest the ontological stakes for
> > which VN is playing. Also sort of interesting, many Miltonists have
> > stumbled on the subject of why Milton would have made Satan so
> > attractive to readers. One of the more persistent arguments goes that
> > Milton hadn't intended anything of the sort, but he was carried away by
> > the power of poetry.
> >
> > Not the devil made me do it, but ...
> >
>
> Of course, it is essential that Milton "made Satan so attractive to
readers"
> because, from the beginning of the epic, the reader must be find something
> sympathetic in his characterization. The reader must be duped into
> believing what he says, so that the reader can experience a "Fall" similar
> to that of prelapsarian Mankind. And Stanley Fish goes to great lengths
to
> explain precisely how this occurs over the course of the epic poem. Part
of
> the irony in all this, as can be imagined, is the fact that the average
> reader *knows* the story and how the characters function within the
biblical
> narrative, yet the Miltonic bard sets the reader up perfectly for having
> such a lapse in Reason.
>
> I question whether the Shade poem -- without the Foreward and
> commentary --establishes a dynamic between poem and reader to a similar
> degree. As readers, we can read the poem "Pale Fire" separately, or in
> conjunction with the Kinbote contributions, but imo I don't see the Shade
> poem having much of an impact on the reader in and of itself; the poem
> achieves its greatness from the ways it is misinterpreted and mishandled
by
> the commentator. Likewise, there is more of a reader dynamic by way of
the
> Kinbote sections, which invite the reader to assess and judge poetic
intent
> (among other things).
>
> Shade's poem is good. Ironically, it's Kinbote's mishandling of the poem
> that makes it great.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:39:59 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: "smudge of ashen fluff"
>
> >>> I think Shade uses "ashen" to describe the
> colour and the main noun in the phrase is "fluff", and this describes the
> bits of feather which have stuck to the window. <<<
>
> I think Nabokov is caricaturizing the poem 'Pale Fire' with the phrase
> 'smudge of ashen fluff.'
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 02:06:09 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Kevin Troy <kevin@useless.net>
> Subject: NPPF: shagbark
>
> I just got back from vacation a few days ago, and have been catching up on
> my pynchon-l reading.
>
> I was struck by Don C.'s observations re: the location of New Wye, and his
> theory that it might be in central Virginia. The geography, as described
> by Don, adds up, but there are a lot of things about _Pale Fire_ that
> smack too strongly of New England and New York.
>
> For example, Shade calls the hickory tree in the yard a "shagbark." I've
> never heard this used by Virginians, so I checked the Dictionary of
> American Regional Expressions (DARE). Their entry for shagbark places it
> as a primarily New England term that spread west from there to the N.
> Central U.S. -- Wisconsin, Michigan, Indiana, etc.
>
> Now, Nabokov wasn't American, and (as far as I can tell w/out reading
> Boyd's American Years cover-to-cover) didn't spend as much time in
> Virginia as in other parts of the U.S., so it could be that he just made a
> mistake. (Recall, if you will, Pynchon's discussion, in the Slow Learner
> intro, of "showing off his ear" inappropriately.) But there are other
> things about New Wye that just seem too northeastern to me -- towns named
> "Exe" and "Lochanhead," large lakes that are ice-skateable, and a lack of
> distnictly southern flora (like dogwoods or magnolias). A-and I can't
> help but believe that Nabokov, if he were setting the book in
> Charlottesville, would manage to incorporate a dig at Faulkner -- UVA's
> writer-in-residence at the time Kinbote arrives in New Wye -- whom Nabokov
> frequently ridiculed.
>
> That said, Don is right -- the geography adds up to central Virginia.
> But I intend to argue, by and by (when we get to the commentary) that New
> Wye is no more real than Zembla. New Wye, Zembla, and Utana are three
> bubble worlds, fantasies that are connected to the real world (New York
> City, Copenhagen, Russia, etc.), but more strongly connected to each
> other. Not much unlike Vineland or San Narciso, really. The
> disorientation is deliberate, and makes New Wye stand out even more
> vividly than if it were a "real" fictional town.
>
> Looking forward to Canto Two and more VLVL, but first, some sleep.
>
> G'night,
> Kevin T.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3441
> ********************************