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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3437 PALE FIRE
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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:57 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3437
>
> pynchon-l-digest Wednesday, July 23 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3437
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: 23 Jul 2003 07:35:54 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> On Tue, 2003-07-22 at 21:48, s~Z wrote:
> > http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/distr/birds/songbird/bombycil.htm
> >
> > Why 'slain?'
> >
> > Slay = to kill violently or to overwhelm, as with laughter or love
> >
>
>
> Kinbote corrects to "knocking itself out."
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:10:52 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> I disagree.
>
> What the *poet* has chosen for his purposes is "slain." What the
> *commentator* has *interpreted* (not "corrected") this word as is
"knocking
> itself out."
>
> Keith raises an interesting question: why "slain"? What are the
connotations
> of "slain" vs. "knocking itself out"? What Shade has done is given us a
> bird that has been "slain / By the false azure in the windowpane," thus
> suggesting its death as more the active recipient of a transparency, of a
> transparent object. Kinbote's interpretation of that death as "knocking
> itself out" transfers the responsibility of death to the waxwing itself, a
> significant (mis)interpretation.
>
> How does this opening couplet, therefore, relate to notions of death and
> responsibility within the context of the entire poem, as well as the
novel?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim S.
>
>
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
>
> >
> >
> > Kinbote corrects to "knocking itself out."
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:14:04 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> Sorry, the bird would be the *passive* recipient. Not *active*.
>
>
> > What Shade has done is given us a
> > bird that has been "slain / By the false azure in the windowpane," thus
> > suggesting its death as more the active recipient of a transparency,
[...]
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:32:36 -0400
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> Assume for a moment that the bird represents Shade. IF Kinbote and Shade
are
> one, it would make perfect sense for Shade to assume his own demise,
whilst
> Kinbote revises it to
>
> "Nah, Guhvneor, it's just stunned. Beautiful plumage, the Norwegian
> Blue....er.....I mean, Cedar Waxwing......"
>
> He'd have a hard time commenting otherwise....
>
>
> love,
> cfa
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> To: "Pynchon-L" <pynchon-l@waste.org>; "Paul Mackin"
> <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:10 AM
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
>
> > I disagree.
> >
> > What the *poet* has chosen for his purposes is "slain." What the
> > *commentator* has *interpreted* (not "corrected") this word as is
> "knocking
> > itself out."
> >
> > Keith raises an interesting question: why "slain"? What are the
> connotations
> > of "slain" vs. "knocking itself out"? What Shade has done is given us a
> > bird that has been "slain / By the false azure in the windowpane," thus
> > suggesting its death as more the active recipient of a transparency, of
a
> > transparent object. Kinbote's interpretation of that death as "knocking
> > itself out" transfers the responsibility of death to the waxwing itself,
a
> > significant (mis)interpretation.
> >
> > How does this opening couplet, therefore, relate to notions of death and
> > responsibility within the context of the entire poem, as well as the
> novel?
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Tim S.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Kinbote corrects to "knocking itself out."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:51:11 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> >> http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/distr/birds/songbird/bombycil.htm
> >>
> >> Why 'slain?'
> >>
> >> Slay = to kill violently or to overwhelm, as with laughter or love
> >>
> >
> >
> > Kinbote corrects to "knocking itself out."
> >
>
> Shade characterises himself as the "shadow" of the bird which was killed
by
> (because of/due to) the reflection of sky in the window. All the definite
> articles make it sound like something which had actually happened, a scene
> Shade had witnessed from inside his bedroom. But it's the "I was ... I was
> .... I lived ... " -- the unashamed yet hopelessly banal self-involvement
of
> it all -- which butchers what could otherwise have been quite a stunning
> setpiece.
>
> As the bird hits the window it leaves a "smudge of ashen fluff" (the first
> of many jarring prosodies and a hopelessly overwrought image to boot) --
> Shade announces himself as this too. Then he also envisions himself, as
the
> imaginary shadow of the now-dead bird, flying on into the reflection of
the
> sky. Ugh.
>
> It's the epitome of bombast, and it sets the stage for the many crimes
> against craft and subtlety which lay ahead.
>
> best
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 23 Jul 2003 09:02:49 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 08:10, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > I disagree.
> >
> > What the *poet* has chosen for his purposes is "slain." What the
> > *commentator* has *interpreted* (not "corrected") this word as is
"knocking
> > itself out."
>
>
> The important thing is that knocking oneself out or being knocked out
> never implies that death has occurred. (sometimes death occurs LATER)
>
> In my experience (not extensive admittedly but not entirely negligible
> either) it's more common for birds to survive crashes into windows than
> for them to die or be seriously injured.
>
> The bird will lie in apparent death for a minute or so, then flutter its
> wings and fly off. Provided a cat is not in the vicinity.
>
> It's a near death experience, such as Shade experienced on two
> occasions.
>
>
> The word "slain" is used by Shade because it's too hard to find a
> dignified rhyme for knocked out.
>
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 06:16:02 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> "slain / By the false azure in the windowpane,"
> "slain / By the feigned remoteness of the windowpane,"
>
> In both cases a deception via the windowpane causes the death. The "false
> azure" implies a painted stage set, sort of like the road-runner cartoon's
> painted-on tunnels into the side of a mountain. The "feigned remoteness"
is
> also a deceit, implying cognizance. In literal terms though the death is
due
> to the ignorance of the waxwing and cognizance is loaded onto the
windowpane
> out of our sympathy for the bird.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:22:59 -0400
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> Jbor:
>
> > Shade characterises himself as the "shadow" of the bird which was killed
> by
> > (because of/due to) the reflection of sky in the window.
>
> It is the likeliest, but not the only possibility........
>
> "All the definite
> > articles make it sound like something which had actually happened,"
>
> So?
>
> " a scene
> > Shade had witnessed from inside his bedroom."
>
> I'm not sure the "optics" would allow Shade to see the shadow of the
waxwing
> from INSIDE the window.....and others have suggested that Shade has
actually
> picked up the bird, a neat trick from inside the house.....
>
> " But it's the "I was ... I was
> > ... I lived ... " -- the unashamed yet hopelessly banal self-involvement
> of
> > it all -- which butchers what could otherwise have been quite a stunning
> > setpiece."
>
> but the "I"s don't consistently point to the same "entity" and more
> importantly, have you eyeballed many elegies lately? 1st person, singular
> and plural dominates the action. Elegies, are, after all, the
reminiscences
> of someone.....
>
> For one of many Wordsworthian examples see
>
> ODE: Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood
>
> or Goldsmith's
> The Deserted Village
>
> these stand in contrast, again, to the much less personal concerns of
Pope.
> I didn't want to go here yet, but......
>
> "In his preface to the Lyrical Ballads, Wordsworth attacks the poetic
> diction and elaborate figures of speech characteristic of 18th century
> poetry, asserting that he had 'taken as much pains to avoid it as others
> take to produce it' and advoating the 'language really used by men'. He
> rejected the notion of a poetic hierarchy ranking epic and tragedy over
the
> SUBJECTIVE mode of lyric; declared 'INCIDENTS AND SITUATIONS FROM COMMON
> LIFE' as fit subjects for art; and SUBSTITUTED SINCERITY FOR STUDIED
> ARTIFICE.......Wordsworth ascribed to art the duty of cultivating
emotional
> and moral response in an increasingly desensitized age, one more
interested
> in titillation than meditation."
>
> From Norton Anthology of Poetry, Biographical Sketches, pg. 1179..
>
> and that's long before we get to the great sollipcist, Keats - yeeeaaach!
>
> >
> > As the bird hits the window it leaves a "smudge of ashen fluff" (the
first
> > of many jarring prosodies and a hopelessly overwrought image to boot) --
>
> Smudge works because its a WAXwing, and as I pointed out, ashen plays to
> both Gray and shade........
>
> > Shade announces himself as this too. Then he also envisions himself, as
> the
> > imaginary shadow of the now-dead bird, flying on into the reflection of
> the
> > sky. Ugh.
>
> Eh.........I see it more as illustrating the possibility of "breaking
> through" (a concept central to the work, and one which will play into
> another of my "theories" - due later in the week....appleshiners should go
> to the description of Shade's seizure and ponder)
>
> >
> > It's the epitome of bombast, and it sets the stage for the many crimes
> > against craft and subtlety which lay ahead.
>
> I'm not sure the above indictements merit such a judgement.....
>
> respectfully...
>
> love,
> cfa
>
>
>
> > best
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:23:59 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:02 AM
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
>
> > On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 08:10, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > > I disagree.
> > >
> > > What the *poet* has chosen for his purposes is "slain." What the
> > > *commentator* has *interpreted* (not "corrected") this word as is
> "knocking
> > > itself out."
> >
> >
> > The important thing is that knocking oneself out or being knocked out
> > never implies that death has occurred. (sometimes death occurs LATER)
>
> Absolutely right. But "slain" does, which is what the poet has chosen.
>
> >
> > It's a near death experience, such as Shade experienced on two
> > occasions.
> >
>
> Good connection with the rest of the text. Certainly possible.
>
> >
> > The word "slain" is used by Shade because it's too hard to find a
> > dignified rhyme for knocked out.
> >
>
> Well, I suppose, but since finding rhymes is an aesthetic challenge to any
> poet who has opted to write in heroic couplets, I'm not comfortable giving
> Shade an "out" like that. Slain is the word of choice, and the word of
> choice is replete with connotations. Kinbote ignores those connotations,
> revising the meaning of the couplet in his commentary. I think both you
and
> Charles are onto something with your connections b/t this couplet and the
> overall text.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 06:35:06 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> - --- charles albert <calbert@hslboxmaster.com> wrote:
> >
> > "He rejected the notion of a poetic hierarchy ranking epic and tragedy
over
> the SUBJECTIVE mode of lyric; declared 'INCIDENTS AND SITUATIONS FROM
COMMON
> LIFE' as fit subjects for art; and SUBSTITUTED SINCERITY FOR STUDIED
ARTIFICE
>
> This will be aptly demonstrated as Shade's style and goal in the fourth
Canto.
>
> DM
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 23 Jul 2003 09:35:31 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 09:23, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> > To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:02 AM
> > Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
> >
> >
> > > On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 08:10, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > > > I disagree.
> > > >
> > > > What the *poet* has chosen for his purposes is "slain." What the
> > > > *commentator* has *interpreted* (not "corrected") this word as is
> > "knocking
> > > > itself out."
> > >
> > >
> > > The important thing is that knocking oneself out or being knocked out
> > > never implies that death has occurred. (sometimes death occurs LATER)
> >
> > Absolutely right. But "slain" does, which is what the poet has chosen.
> >
> > >
> > > It's a near death experience, such as Shade experienced on two
> > > occasions.
> > >
> >
> > Good connection with the rest of the text. Certainly possible.
> >
> > >
> > > The word "slain" is used by Shade because it's too hard to find a
> > > dignified rhyme for knocked out.
> > >
> >
> > Well, I suppose, but since finding rhymes is an aesthetic challenge to
any
> > poet who has opted to write in heroic couplets, I'm not comfortable
giving
> > Shade an "out" like that. Slain is the word of choice, and the word of
> > choice is replete with connotations. Kinbote ignores those
connotations,
> > revising the meaning of the couplet in his commentary. I think both you
and
> > Charles are onto something with your connections b/t this couplet and
the
> > overall text.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Tim
>
>
> Anyway it's a great opening line.
>
> Almost as good as all happy families are different.
>
> Or was it all happy families are the same?
>
> Can never remember.
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 23 Jul 2003 09:41:21 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 09:35, Paul Mackin wrote:
> > On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 09:23, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> > > To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:02 AM
> > > Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 08:10, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > > > > I disagree.
> > > > >
> > > > > What the *poet* has chosen for his purposes is "slain." What the
> > > > > *commentator* has *interpreted* (not "corrected") this word as is
> > > "knocking
> > > > > itself out."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The important thing is that knocking oneself out or being knocked
out
> > > > never implies that death has occurred. (sometimes death occurs
LATER)
> > >
> > > Absolutely right. But "slain" does, which is what the poet has
chosen.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > It's a near death experience, such as Shade experienced on two
> > > > occasions.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Good connection with the rest of the text. Certainly possible.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The word "slain" is used by Shade because it's too hard to find a
> > > > dignified rhyme for knocked out.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well, I suppose, but since finding rhymes is an aesthetic challenge to
any
> > > poet who has opted to write in heroic couplets, I'm not comfortable
giving
> > > Shade an "out" like that. Slain is the word of choice, and the word
of
> > > choice is replete with connotations. Kinbote ignores those
connotations,
> > > revising the meaning of the couplet in his commentary. I think both
you and
> > > Charles are onto something with your connections b/t this couplet and
the
> > > overall text.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Tim
> >
> >
> > Anyway it's a great opening line.
> >
> > Almost as good as all happy families are different.
> >
> > Or was it all happy families are the same?
> >
> > Can never remember.
> >
> > P.
>
> Answer: it depends on whether you're reading Ada or Anna Karenina.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:43:28 -0400
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> "Feigned remoteness" suggests an 'agency" absent in the first
example.....I
> am not certain what that shift accomplishes, unless it is to link to the
> "cage keepers".
>
>
>
> love,
> cfa
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Morris" <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> To: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>; "Pynchon-L"
> <pynchon-l@waste.org>; "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
>
> >
> >
> > "slain / By the false azure in the windowpane,"
> > "slain / By the feigned remoteness of the windowpane,"
> >
> > In both cases a deception via the windowpane causes the death. The
"false
> > azure" implies a painted stage set, sort of like the road-runner
cartoon's
> > painted-on tunnels into the side of a mountain. The "feigned
remoteness"
> is
> > also a deceit, implying cognizance. In literal terms though the death
is
> due
> > to the ignorance of the waxwing and cognizance is loaded onto the
> windowpane
> > out of our sympathy for the bird.
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:44:32 -0400
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> Jbor has already expressed his contempt for the shaving scene, which I
found
> "poignant"...........
>
>
> love,
> cfa
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Morris" <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> To: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>; <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:35 AM
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
>
> >
> > --- charles albert <calbert@hslboxmaster.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > "He rejected the notion of a poetic hierarchy ranking epic and tragedy
> over
> > the SUBJECTIVE mode of lyric; declared 'INCIDENTS AND SITUATIONS FROM
> COMMON
> > LIFE' as fit subjects for art; and SUBSTITUTED SINCERITY FOR STUDIED
> ARTIFICE
> >
> > This will be aptly demonstrated as Shade's style and goal in the fourth
> Canto.
> >
> > DM
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:51:53 -0400
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> According to Fowler, there is possibly something else at play
> here..........F suggests that Nab, upon confronting Eliot and his fellow
> symbolists, reacted negatively to the genre.....F suggests that part of
the
> purpose of PF is to respond to such excesses.....Fowler cites Eliot's
> "Marina" and contrast it with what he believes to be a Nabokov model, John
> Crowe Ransom's "Bells forJohn Whitesides Daughter"...
>
> it is an interesting argument........
>
> love,
> cfa
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
>
> > Jbor:
> >
> > > Shade characterises himself as the "shadow" of the bird which was
killed
> > by
> > > (because of/due to) the reflection of sky in the window.
> >
> > It is the likeliest, but not the only possibility........
> >
> > "All the definite
> > > articles make it sound like something which had actually happened,"
> >
> > So?
> >
> > " a scene
> > > Shade had witnessed from inside his bedroom."
> >
> > I'm not sure the "optics" would allow Shade to see the shadow of the
> waxwing
> > from INSIDE the window.....and others have suggested that Shade has
> actually
> > picked up the bird, a neat trick from inside the house.....
> >
> > " But it's the "I was ... I was
> > > ... I lived ... " -- the unashamed yet hopelessly banal
self-involvement
> > of
> > > it all -- which butchers what could otherwise have been quite a
stunning
> > > setpiece."
> >
> > but the "I"s don't consistently point to the same "entity" and more
> > importantly, have you eyeballed many elegies lately? 1st person,
singular
> > and plural dominates the action. Elegies, are, after all, the
> reminiscences
> > of someone.....
> >
> > For one of many Wordsworthian examples see
> >
> > ODE: Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood
> >
> > or Goldsmith's
> > The Deserted Village
> >
> > these stand in contrast, again, to the much less personal concerns of
> Pope.
> > I didn't want to go here yet, but......
> >
> > "In his preface to the Lyrical Ballads, Wordsworth attacks the poetic
> > diction and elaborate figures of speech characteristic of 18th century
> > poetry, asserting that he had 'taken as much pains to avoid it as others
> > take to produce it' and advoating the 'language really used by men'. He
> > rejected the notion of a poetic hierarchy ranking epic and tragedy over
> the
> > SUBJECTIVE mode of lyric; declared 'INCIDENTS AND SITUATIONS FROM COMMON
> > LIFE' as fit subjects for art; and SUBSTITUTED SINCERITY FOR STUDIED
> > ARTIFICE.......Wordsworth ascribed to art the duty of cultivating
> emotional
> > and moral response in an increasingly desensitized age, one more
> interested
> > in titillation than meditation."
> >
> > From Norton Anthology of Poetry, Biographical Sketches, pg. 1179..
> >
> > and that's long before we get to the great sollipcist, Keats -
yeeeaaach!
> >
> > >
> > > As the bird hits the window it leaves a "smudge of ashen fluff" (the
> first
> > > of many jarring prosodies and a hopelessly overwrought image to
boot) --
> >
> > Smudge works because its a WAXwing, and as I pointed out, ashen plays to
> > both Gray and shade........
> >
> > > Shade announces himself as this too. Then he also envisions himself,
as
> > the
> > > imaginary shadow of the now-dead bird, flying on into the reflection
of
> > the
> > > sky. Ugh.
> >
> > Eh.........I see it more as illustrating the possibility of "breaking
> > through" (a concept central to the work, and one which will play into
> > another of my "theories" - due later in the week....appleshiners should
go
> > to the description of Shade's seizure and ponder)
> >
> > >
> > > It's the epitome of bombast, and it sets the stage for the many crimes
> > > against craft and subtlety which lay ahead.
> >
> > I'm not sure the above indictements merit such a judgement.....
> >
> > respectfully...
> >
> > love,
> > cfa
> >
> >
> >
> > > best
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:27:46 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> I think both suggest an "agency." The "falsehood" of the azure implies
the
> agency of something or someone for whatever purpose, most likely to fool
the
> waxwing. And I think both are meant to be linked to the "cage keepers."
>
> - --- charles albert <calbert@hslboxmaster.com> wrote:
> > "Feigned remoteness" suggests an 'agency" absent in the first
example.....I
> am not certain what that shift accomplishes, unless it is to link to the
"cage
> keepers".
>
> > > "slain / By the false azure in the windowpane,"
> > > "slain / By the feigned remoteness of the windowpane,"
>
> Last night I focused again on the part of the poem which surrounds the
second
> "I was" above. Shade contrasts his acute sensitivity and suffering with
that
> lacking in the "vulgarians." He also contrasts his fate of being "fat,
lame
> and asthmatic" with the adeptness of these same "vulgarians," but then
denies
> his envy. He denies his envy (which is self-evident by his name-calling
> "vulgarian") EXCEPT for the miracle of the lemniscate left by these
vulgarian's
> nonchalant deftness. That means he envies their ability, but it focuses
this
> envy on a symbol of infinity.
>
> No conclusions...
>
> David Morris
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:32:03 -0400
> From: <gumbo@fuse.net>
> Subject: Re: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> >
> > "Feigned remoteness" suggests an 'agency" absent in the first
example.....I
>
> Well, sort of. Certainly "feigned" suggests a purposeful act. "Remoteness"
can be read as either emotional or physical distance. It is the illusion of
physical distance that brings the bird to grief, but the content of the
reflection in the glass is the product of optical principles, not some
choice.
>
> D.C.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:39:15 EDT
> From: Elainemmbell@aol.com
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE (1)
>
> - --part1_12c.2eb25973.2c4ff813_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> I think I had a big pink Raleigh that did the lemniscate thing...early
60's?
>
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:44:52 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> - --- gumbo@fuse.net wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > "Feigned remoteness" suggests an 'agency" absent in the first
example.....I
> >
> > Well, sort of. Certainly "feigned" suggests a purposeful act.
"Remoteness"
> can be read as either emotional or physical distance.
>
> If we take it as feigned emotional distance, that would imply that the
> windowpane wanted tha contact... :)
>
> > It is the illusion of physical distance that brings the bird to grief,
but
> the content of the reflection in the glass is the product of optical
> principles, not some choice.
>
> Why do you have to get all literal on us now? This is poetry, durnit.
>
> DM
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:50:50 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Malignd <malignd@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> Why "slain"?
>
> and
>
> <<Shade characterises himself as the "shadow" of the
> bird which was killed by (because of/due to) the
> reflection of sky in the window. All the definite
> articles make it sound like something which had
> actually happened, a scene Shade had witnessed from
> inside his bedroom. But it's the "I was ... I was ...
> I lived ... " -- the unashamed yet hopelessly banal
> self-involvement of it all -- which butchers what
> could otherwise have been quite a stunning setpiece.>>
>
> Another possibility here is that the "I"s are not
> banal self-involvement but a specific reference to
> Shade's near-death experience following his attack
> (line 691). He was "slain," momentarily (his heart
> stopped), brought down by an attack, then his heart
> began again to beat and he "lived on, flew on ..."
> etc.
>
> He goes on, speaking of visual deceptions(710):
>
> The scene was not our sense. In life, the mind
> Of any man is quick to recognize
> Natural shams, and then before his eyes
> The reed becomes a bird, the knobby twig
> An inchworm, and the cobra head, a big
> Wickedly folded moth. ...
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:56:52 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE: Lemniscate
>
> Nice web site, which even has an image called "Lemniscate linkage 2" which
> looks like a bicycle:
>
>
http://xahlee.org/SpecialPlaneCurves_dir/LemniscateOfBernoulli_dir/lemniscateOfBernoulli.html
>
> Lemniscate of Bernoulli is the intersection of a plane tangent to the
inner
> ring of a torus whose inner radius equals to its radius of generating
circle.
>
>
> __________________________________
> > Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:03:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE: Lemniscate and Spacetime
>
> http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath170.htm
>
> The Lemniscate and Spacetime
>
> The advance of the quantum phase of a system over a timelike interval
> of spacetime equals the Lorentz-invariant magnitude of that interval.
> In the xt plane the square of the magnitude of the interval from
> the origin to the event (x,t) is s^2 = t^2 - x^2. Similarly we can
> define the squared magnitude of a spacelike interval from the origin
> to the event (x,t) as s^2 = x^2 - t^2.
>
> [...]
>
> This means that if we select an event whose coordinates are (x,t)
> with respect to a given inertial system, the interval from the origin
> to this event makes an angle q relative to the positive x axis in
> the xt plane, and the squared Lorentz-invariant magnitude of the
> interval is given by (x^2 + t^2) cos(2q).
>
> Consequently the "circular" locus of events such that x^2 + t^2 = r^2
> for any fixed r can be represented in polar coordinates (s,q) by the
> equation
> s^2 = r^2 cos(2q)
>
> This is the equation of a lemniscate, illustrated in the figure below
> for several values of r.
>
>
> __________________________________
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 23 Jul 2003 11:23:17 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE (1)
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 10:39, Elainemmbell@aol.com wrote:
> > I think I had a big pink Raleigh that did the lemniscate thing...early
60's?
> >
> > Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> > (860) 523-9225
>
> Mine was a red Schwinn in the late thirties.
>
> By the fifties Raleighs had become the bike to have. Imported from
> Britain.
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> In a message dated 7/23/2003 10:58:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> slothenvypride7@yahoo.com writes:
>
> > Yowza! Don't know what that "Raleigh" object is, but this thread's
> > starting to turn me on!!
> >
>
> Just a bicycle you naughty gentlemen! ...and mom told me I could always
> trust sensitive post-modernists...
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> Subject: NN/NP "Elegant Gothic Lolita"
>
> Elegant Gothic Lolita
> Kyshah Hell
>
> An elegant Gothic Lolita, EGL or Gothic Lolita for
> short, is a Japanese teen or young adult who dresses
> in amazingly elaborate Gothic looking babydoll
> costumes. On the weekends these women walk the streets
> of Tokyo and Osaka and fill Yoyogi Park and Harajuku
> neighborhood where they pose for tourist▓s pictures
> and sit around looking pretty. They are beautiful,
> glamorous, doll-like manifestations of their favorite
> Visual Rock stars. [...]
>
> <http://www.morbidoutlook.com/fashion/articles/2002_07_gothiclolita.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3437
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:57 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3437
>
> pynchon-l-digest Wednesday, July 23 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3437
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: 23 Jul 2003 07:35:54 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> On Tue, 2003-07-22 at 21:48, s~Z wrote:
> > http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/distr/birds/songbird/bombycil.htm
> >
> > Why 'slain?'
> >
> > Slay = to kill violently or to overwhelm, as with laughter or love
> >
>
>
> Kinbote corrects to "knocking itself out."
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:10:52 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> I disagree.
>
> What the *poet* has chosen for his purposes is "slain." What the
> *commentator* has *interpreted* (not "corrected") this word as is
"knocking
> itself out."
>
> Keith raises an interesting question: why "slain"? What are the
connotations
> of "slain" vs. "knocking itself out"? What Shade has done is given us a
> bird that has been "slain / By the false azure in the windowpane," thus
> suggesting its death as more the active recipient of a transparency, of a
> transparent object. Kinbote's interpretation of that death as "knocking
> itself out" transfers the responsibility of death to the waxwing itself, a
> significant (mis)interpretation.
>
> How does this opening couplet, therefore, relate to notions of death and
> responsibility within the context of the entire poem, as well as the
novel?
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim S.
>
>
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
>
> >
> >
> > Kinbote corrects to "knocking itself out."
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:14:04 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> Sorry, the bird would be the *passive* recipient. Not *active*.
>
>
> > What Shade has done is given us a
> > bird that has been "slain / By the false azure in the windowpane," thus
> > suggesting its death as more the active recipient of a transparency,
[...]
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:32:36 -0400
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> Assume for a moment that the bird represents Shade. IF Kinbote and Shade
are
> one, it would make perfect sense for Shade to assume his own demise,
whilst
> Kinbote revises it to
>
> "Nah, Guhvneor, it's just stunned. Beautiful plumage, the Norwegian
> Blue....er.....I mean, Cedar Waxwing......"
>
> He'd have a hard time commenting otherwise....
>
>
> love,
> cfa
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> To: "Pynchon-L" <pynchon-l@waste.org>; "Paul Mackin"
> <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:10 AM
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
>
> > I disagree.
> >
> > What the *poet* has chosen for his purposes is "slain." What the
> > *commentator* has *interpreted* (not "corrected") this word as is
> "knocking
> > itself out."
> >
> > Keith raises an interesting question: why "slain"? What are the
> connotations
> > of "slain" vs. "knocking itself out"? What Shade has done is given us a
> > bird that has been "slain / By the false azure in the windowpane," thus
> > suggesting its death as more the active recipient of a transparency, of
a
> > transparent object. Kinbote's interpretation of that death as "knocking
> > itself out" transfers the responsibility of death to the waxwing itself,
a
> > significant (mis)interpretation.
> >
> > How does this opening couplet, therefore, relate to notions of death and
> > responsibility within the context of the entire poem, as well as the
> novel?
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Tim S.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Kinbote corrects to "knocking itself out."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:51:11 +1000
> From: jbor <jbor@bigpond.com>
> Subject: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> >> http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/distr/birds/songbird/bombycil.htm
> >>
> >> Why 'slain?'
> >>
> >> Slay = to kill violently or to overwhelm, as with laughter or love
> >>
> >
> >
> > Kinbote corrects to "knocking itself out."
> >
>
> Shade characterises himself as the "shadow" of the bird which was killed
by
> (because of/due to) the reflection of sky in the window. All the definite
> articles make it sound like something which had actually happened, a scene
> Shade had witnessed from inside his bedroom. But it's the "I was ... I was
> .... I lived ... " -- the unashamed yet hopelessly banal self-involvement
of
> it all -- which butchers what could otherwise have been quite a stunning
> setpiece.
>
> As the bird hits the window it leaves a "smudge of ashen fluff" (the first
> of many jarring prosodies and a hopelessly overwrought image to boot) --
> Shade announces himself as this too. Then he also envisions himself, as
the
> imaginary shadow of the now-dead bird, flying on into the reflection of
the
> sky. Ugh.
>
> It's the epitome of bombast, and it sets the stage for the many crimes
> against craft and subtlety which lay ahead.
>
> best
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 23 Jul 2003 09:02:49 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 08:10, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > I disagree.
> >
> > What the *poet* has chosen for his purposes is "slain." What the
> > *commentator* has *interpreted* (not "corrected") this word as is
"knocking
> > itself out."
>
>
> The important thing is that knocking oneself out or being knocked out
> never implies that death has occurred. (sometimes death occurs LATER)
>
> In my experience (not extensive admittedly but not entirely negligible
> either) it's more common for birds to survive crashes into windows than
> for them to die or be seriously injured.
>
> The bird will lie in apparent death for a minute or so, then flutter its
> wings and fly off. Provided a cat is not in the vicinity.
>
> It's a near death experience, such as Shade experienced on two
> occasions.
>
>
> The word "slain" is used by Shade because it's too hard to find a
> dignified rhyme for knocked out.
>
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 06:16:02 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> "slain / By the false azure in the windowpane,"
> "slain / By the feigned remoteness of the windowpane,"
>
> In both cases a deception via the windowpane causes the death. The "false
> azure" implies a painted stage set, sort of like the road-runner cartoon's
> painted-on tunnels into the side of a mountain. The "feigned remoteness"
is
> also a deceit, implying cognizance. In literal terms though the death is
due
> to the ignorance of the waxwing and cognizance is loaded onto the
windowpane
> out of our sympathy for the bird.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:22:59 -0400
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> Jbor:
>
> > Shade characterises himself as the "shadow" of the bird which was killed
> by
> > (because of/due to) the reflection of sky in the window.
>
> It is the likeliest, but not the only possibility........
>
> "All the definite
> > articles make it sound like something which had actually happened,"
>
> So?
>
> " a scene
> > Shade had witnessed from inside his bedroom."
>
> I'm not sure the "optics" would allow Shade to see the shadow of the
waxwing
> from INSIDE the window.....and others have suggested that Shade has
actually
> picked up the bird, a neat trick from inside the house.....
>
> " But it's the "I was ... I was
> > ... I lived ... " -- the unashamed yet hopelessly banal self-involvement
> of
> > it all -- which butchers what could otherwise have been quite a stunning
> > setpiece."
>
> but the "I"s don't consistently point to the same "entity" and more
> importantly, have you eyeballed many elegies lately? 1st person, singular
> and plural dominates the action. Elegies, are, after all, the
reminiscences
> of someone.....
>
> For one of many Wordsworthian examples see
>
> ODE: Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood
>
> or Goldsmith's
> The Deserted Village
>
> these stand in contrast, again, to the much less personal concerns of
Pope.
> I didn't want to go here yet, but......
>
> "In his preface to the Lyrical Ballads, Wordsworth attacks the poetic
> diction and elaborate figures of speech characteristic of 18th century
> poetry, asserting that he had 'taken as much pains to avoid it as others
> take to produce it' and advoating the 'language really used by men'. He
> rejected the notion of a poetic hierarchy ranking epic and tragedy over
the
> SUBJECTIVE mode of lyric; declared 'INCIDENTS AND SITUATIONS FROM COMMON
> LIFE' as fit subjects for art; and SUBSTITUTED SINCERITY FOR STUDIED
> ARTIFICE.......Wordsworth ascribed to art the duty of cultivating
emotional
> and moral response in an increasingly desensitized age, one more
interested
> in titillation than meditation."
>
> From Norton Anthology of Poetry, Biographical Sketches, pg. 1179..
>
> and that's long before we get to the great sollipcist, Keats - yeeeaaach!
>
> >
> > As the bird hits the window it leaves a "smudge of ashen fluff" (the
first
> > of many jarring prosodies and a hopelessly overwrought image to boot) --
>
> Smudge works because its a WAXwing, and as I pointed out, ashen plays to
> both Gray and shade........
>
> > Shade announces himself as this too. Then he also envisions himself, as
> the
> > imaginary shadow of the now-dead bird, flying on into the reflection of
> the
> > sky. Ugh.
>
> Eh.........I see it more as illustrating the possibility of "breaking
> through" (a concept central to the work, and one which will play into
> another of my "theories" - due later in the week....appleshiners should go
> to the description of Shade's seizure and ponder)
>
> >
> > It's the epitome of bombast, and it sets the stage for the many crimes
> > against craft and subtlety which lay ahead.
>
> I'm not sure the above indictements merit such a judgement.....
>
> respectfully...
>
> love,
> cfa
>
>
>
> > best
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:23:59 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:02 AM
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
>
> > On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 08:10, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > > I disagree.
> > >
> > > What the *poet* has chosen for his purposes is "slain." What the
> > > *commentator* has *interpreted* (not "corrected") this word as is
> "knocking
> > > itself out."
> >
> >
> > The important thing is that knocking oneself out or being knocked out
> > never implies that death has occurred. (sometimes death occurs LATER)
>
> Absolutely right. But "slain" does, which is what the poet has chosen.
>
> >
> > It's a near death experience, such as Shade experienced on two
> > occasions.
> >
>
> Good connection with the rest of the text. Certainly possible.
>
> >
> > The word "slain" is used by Shade because it's too hard to find a
> > dignified rhyme for knocked out.
> >
>
> Well, I suppose, but since finding rhymes is an aesthetic challenge to any
> poet who has opted to write in heroic couplets, I'm not comfortable giving
> Shade an "out" like that. Slain is the word of choice, and the word of
> choice is replete with connotations. Kinbote ignores those connotations,
> revising the meaning of the couplet in his commentary. I think both you
and
> Charles are onto something with your connections b/t this couplet and the
> overall text.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 06:35:06 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> - --- charles albert <calbert@hslboxmaster.com> wrote:
> >
> > "He rejected the notion of a poetic hierarchy ranking epic and tragedy
over
> the SUBJECTIVE mode of lyric; declared 'INCIDENTS AND SITUATIONS FROM
COMMON
> LIFE' as fit subjects for art; and SUBSTITUTED SINCERITY FOR STUDIED
ARTIFICE
>
> This will be aptly demonstrated as Shade's style and goal in the fourth
Canto.
>
> DM
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 23 Jul 2003 09:35:31 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 09:23, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> > To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:02 AM
> > Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
> >
> >
> > > On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 08:10, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > > > I disagree.
> > > >
> > > > What the *poet* has chosen for his purposes is "slain." What the
> > > > *commentator* has *interpreted* (not "corrected") this word as is
> > "knocking
> > > > itself out."
> > >
> > >
> > > The important thing is that knocking oneself out or being knocked out
> > > never implies that death has occurred. (sometimes death occurs LATER)
> >
> > Absolutely right. But "slain" does, which is what the poet has chosen.
> >
> > >
> > > It's a near death experience, such as Shade experienced on two
> > > occasions.
> > >
> >
> > Good connection with the rest of the text. Certainly possible.
> >
> > >
> > > The word "slain" is used by Shade because it's too hard to find a
> > > dignified rhyme for knocked out.
> > >
> >
> > Well, I suppose, but since finding rhymes is an aesthetic challenge to
any
> > poet who has opted to write in heroic couplets, I'm not comfortable
giving
> > Shade an "out" like that. Slain is the word of choice, and the word of
> > choice is replete with connotations. Kinbote ignores those
connotations,
> > revising the meaning of the couplet in his commentary. I think both you
and
> > Charles are onto something with your connections b/t this couplet and
the
> > overall text.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Tim
>
>
> Anyway it's a great opening line.
>
> Almost as good as all happy families are different.
>
> Or was it all happy families are the same?
>
> Can never remember.
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 23 Jul 2003 09:41:21 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 09:35, Paul Mackin wrote:
> > On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 09:23, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> > > To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:02 AM
> > > Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: Reflections Of A Silky-Tailed Slain
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 08:10, Tim Strzechowski wrote:
> > > > > I disagree.
> > > > >
> > > > > What the *poet* has chosen for his purposes is "slain." What the
> > > > > *commentator* has *interpreted* (not "corrected") this word as is
> > > "knocking
> > > > > itself out."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The important thing is that knocking oneself out or being knocked
out
> > > > never implies that death has occurred. (sometimes death occurs
LATER)
> > >
> > > Absolutely right. But "slain" does, which is what the poet has
chosen.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > It's a near death experience, such as Shade experienced on two
> > > > occasions.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Good connection with the rest of the text. Certainly possible.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The word "slain" is used by Shade because it's too hard to find a
> > > > dignified rhyme for knocked out.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well, I suppose, but since finding rhymes is an aesthetic challenge to
any
> > > poet who has opted to write in heroic couplets, I'm not comfortable
giving
> > > Shade an "out" like that. Slain is the word of choice, and the word
of
> > > choice is replete with connotations. Kinbote ignores those
connotations,
> > > revising the meaning of the couplet in his commentary. I think both
you and
> > > Charles are onto something with your connections b/t this couplet and
the
> > > overall text.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Tim
> >
> >
> > Anyway it's a great opening line.
> >
> > Almost as good as all happy families are different.
> >
> > Or was it all happy families are the same?
> >
> > Can never remember.
> >
> > P.
>
> Answer: it depends on whether you're reading Ada or Anna Karenina.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:43:28 -0400
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> "Feigned remoteness" suggests an 'agency" absent in the first
example.....I
> am not certain what that shift accomplishes, unless it is to link to the
> "cage keepers".
>
>
>
> love,
> cfa
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Morris" <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> To: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>; "Pynchon-L"
> <pynchon-l@waste.org>; "Paul Mackin" <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
>
> >
> >
> > "slain / By the false azure in the windowpane,"
> > "slain / By the feigned remoteness of the windowpane,"
> >
> > In both cases a deception via the windowpane causes the death. The
"false
> > azure" implies a painted stage set, sort of like the road-runner
cartoon's
> > painted-on tunnels into the side of a mountain. The "feigned
remoteness"
> is
> > also a deceit, implying cognizance. In literal terms though the death
is
> due
> > to the ignorance of the waxwing and cognizance is loaded onto the
> windowpane
> > out of our sympathy for the bird.
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:44:32 -0400
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> Jbor has already expressed his contempt for the shaving scene, which I
found
> "poignant"...........
>
>
> love,
> cfa
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Morris" <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> To: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>; <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:35 AM
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
>
> >
> > --- charles albert <calbert@hslboxmaster.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > "He rejected the notion of a poetic hierarchy ranking epic and tragedy
> over
> > the SUBJECTIVE mode of lyric; declared 'INCIDENTS AND SITUATIONS FROM
> COMMON
> > LIFE' as fit subjects for art; and SUBSTITUTED SINCERITY FOR STUDIED
> ARTIFICE
> >
> > This will be aptly demonstrated as Shade's style and goal in the fourth
> Canto.
> >
> > DM
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:51:53 -0400
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
> According to Fowler, there is possibly something else at play
> here..........F suggests that Nab, upon confronting Eliot and his fellow
> symbolists, reacted negatively to the genre.....F suggests that part of
the
> purpose of PF is to respond to such excesses.....Fowler cites Eliot's
> "Marina" and contrast it with what he believes to be a Nabokov model, John
> Crowe Ransom's "Bells forJohn Whitesides Daughter"...
>
> it is an interesting argument........
>
> love,
> cfa
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "charles albert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: NPPF Canto 1: 1-4
>
>
> > Jbor:
> >
> > > Shade characterises himself as the "shadow" of the bird which was
killed
> > by
> > > (because of/due to) the reflection of sky in the window.
> >
> > It is the likeliest, but not the only possibility........
> >
> > "All the definite
> > > articles make it sound like something which had actually happened,"
> >
> > So?
> >
> > " a scene
> > > Shade had witnessed from inside his bedroom."
> >
> > I'm not sure the "optics" would allow Shade to see the shadow of the
> waxwing
> > from INSIDE the window.....and others have suggested that Shade has
> actually
> > picked up the bird, a neat trick from inside the house.....
> >
> > " But it's the "I was ... I was
> > > ... I lived ... " -- the unashamed yet hopelessly banal
self-involvement
> > of
> > > it all -- which butchers what could otherwise have been quite a
stunning
> > > setpiece."
> >
> > but the "I"s don't consistently point to the same "entity" and more
> > importantly, have you eyeballed many elegies lately? 1st person,
singular
> > and plural dominates the action. Elegies, are, after all, the
> reminiscences
> > of someone.....
> >
> > For one of many Wordsworthian examples see
> >
> > ODE: Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood
> >
> > or Goldsmith's
> > The Deserted Village
> >
> > these stand in contrast, again, to the much less personal concerns of
> Pope.
> > I didn't want to go here yet, but......
> >
> > "In his preface to the Lyrical Ballads, Wordsworth attacks the poetic
> > diction and elaborate figures of speech characteristic of 18th century
> > poetry, asserting that he had 'taken as much pains to avoid it as others
> > take to produce it' and advoating the 'language really used by men'. He
> > rejected the notion of a poetic hierarchy ranking epic and tragedy over
> the
> > SUBJECTIVE mode of lyric; declared 'INCIDENTS AND SITUATIONS FROM COMMON
> > LIFE' as fit subjects for art; and SUBSTITUTED SINCERITY FOR STUDIED
> > ARTIFICE.......Wordsworth ascribed to art the duty of cultivating
> emotional
> > and moral response in an increasingly desensitized age, one more
> interested
> > in titillation than meditation."
> >
> > From Norton Anthology of Poetry, Biographical Sketches, pg. 1179..
> >
> > and that's long before we get to the great sollipcist, Keats -
yeeeaaach!
> >
> > >
> > > As the bird hits the window it leaves a "smudge of ashen fluff" (the
> first
> > > of many jarring prosodies and a hopelessly overwrought image to
boot) --
> >
> > Smudge works because its a WAXwing, and as I pointed out, ashen plays to
> > both Gray and shade........
> >
> > > Shade announces himself as this too. Then he also envisions himself,
as
> > the
> > > imaginary shadow of the now-dead bird, flying on into the reflection
of
> > the
> > > sky. Ugh.
> >
> > Eh.........I see it more as illustrating the possibility of "breaking
> > through" (a concept central to the work, and one which will play into
> > another of my "theories" - due later in the week....appleshiners should
go
> > to the description of Shade's seizure and ponder)
> >
> > >
> > > It's the epitome of bombast, and it sets the stage for the many crimes
> > > against craft and subtlety which lay ahead.
> >
> > I'm not sure the above indictements merit such a judgement.....
> >
> > respectfully...
> >
> > love,
> > cfa
> >
> >
> >
> > > best
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:27:46 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> I think both suggest an "agency." The "falsehood" of the azure implies
the
> agency of something or someone for whatever purpose, most likely to fool
the
> waxwing. And I think both are meant to be linked to the "cage keepers."
>
> - --- charles albert <calbert@hslboxmaster.com> wrote:
> > "Feigned remoteness" suggests an 'agency" absent in the first
example.....I
> am not certain what that shift accomplishes, unless it is to link to the
"cage
> keepers".
>
> > > "slain / By the false azure in the windowpane,"
> > > "slain / By the feigned remoteness of the windowpane,"
>
> Last night I focused again on the part of the poem which surrounds the
second
> "I was" above. Shade contrasts his acute sensitivity and suffering with
that
> lacking in the "vulgarians." He also contrasts his fate of being "fat,
lame
> and asthmatic" with the adeptness of these same "vulgarians," but then
denies
> his envy. He denies his envy (which is self-evident by his name-calling
> "vulgarian") EXCEPT for the miracle of the lemniscate left by these
vulgarian's
> nonchalant deftness. That means he envies their ability, but it focuses
this
> envy on a symbol of infinity.
>
> No conclusions...
>
> David Morris
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:32:03 -0400
> From: <gumbo@fuse.net>
> Subject: Re: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> >
> > "Feigned remoteness" suggests an 'agency" absent in the first
example.....I
>
> Well, sort of. Certainly "feigned" suggests a purposeful act. "Remoteness"
can be read as either emotional or physical distance. It is the illusion of
physical distance that brings the bird to grief, but the content of the
reflection in the glass is the product of optical principles, not some
choice.
>
> D.C.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:39:15 EDT
> From: Elainemmbell@aol.com
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE (1)
>
> - --part1_12c.2eb25973.2c4ff813_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> I think I had a big pink Raleigh that did the lemniscate thing...early
60's?
>
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:44:52 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> - --- gumbo@fuse.net wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > "Feigned remoteness" suggests an 'agency" absent in the first
example.....I
> >
> > Well, sort of. Certainly "feigned" suggests a purposeful act.
"Remoteness"
> can be read as either emotional or physical distance.
>
> If we take it as feigned emotional distance, that would imply that the
> windowpane wanted tha contact... :)
>
> > It is the illusion of physical distance that brings the bird to grief,
but
> the content of the reflection in the glass is the product of optical
> principles, not some choice.
>
> Why do you have to get all literal on us now? This is poetry, durnit.
>
> DM
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:50:50 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Malignd <malignd@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: CANTO ONE: "slain/By"
>
> Why "slain"?
>
> and
>
> <<Shade characterises himself as the "shadow" of the
> bird which was killed by (because of/due to) the
> reflection of sky in the window. All the definite
> articles make it sound like something which had
> actually happened, a scene Shade had witnessed from
> inside his bedroom. But it's the "I was ... I was ...
> I lived ... " -- the unashamed yet hopelessly banal
> self-involvement of it all -- which butchers what
> could otherwise have been quite a stunning setpiece.>>
>
> Another possibility here is that the "I"s are not
> banal self-involvement but a specific reference to
> Shade's near-death experience following his attack
> (line 691). He was "slain," momentarily (his heart
> stopped), brought down by an attack, then his heart
> began again to beat and he "lived on, flew on ..."
> etc.
>
> He goes on, speaking of visual deceptions(710):
>
> The scene was not our sense. In life, the mind
> Of any man is quick to recognize
> Natural shams, and then before his eyes
> The reed becomes a bird, the knobby twig
> An inchworm, and the cobra head, a big
> Wickedly folded moth. ...
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:56:52 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE: Lemniscate
>
> Nice web site, which even has an image called "Lemniscate linkage 2" which
> looks like a bicycle:
>
>
http://xahlee.org/SpecialPlaneCurves_dir/LemniscateOfBernoulli_dir/lemniscateOfBernoulli.html
>
> Lemniscate of Bernoulli is the intersection of a plane tangent to the
inner
> ring of a torus whose inner radius equals to its radius of generating
circle.
>
>
> __________________________________
> > Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:03:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE: Lemniscate and Spacetime
>
> http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath170.htm
>
> The Lemniscate and Spacetime
>
> The advance of the quantum phase of a system over a timelike interval
> of spacetime equals the Lorentz-invariant magnitude of that interval.
> In the xt plane the square of the magnitude of the interval from
> the origin to the event (x,t) is s^2 = t^2 - x^2. Similarly we can
> define the squared magnitude of a spacelike interval from the origin
> to the event (x,t) as s^2 = x^2 - t^2.
>
> [...]
>
> This means that if we select an event whose coordinates are (x,t)
> with respect to a given inertial system, the interval from the origin
> to this event makes an angle q relative to the positive x axis in
> the xt plane, and the squared Lorentz-invariant magnitude of the
> interval is given by (x^2 + t^2) cos(2q).
>
> Consequently the "circular" locus of events such that x^2 + t^2 = r^2
> for any fixed r can be represented in polar coordinates (s,q) by the
> equation
> s^2 = r^2 cos(2q)
>
> This is the equation of a lemniscate, illustrated in the figure below
> for several values of r.
>
>
> __________________________________
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 23 Jul 2003 11:23:17 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: CANTO ONE (1)
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 10:39, Elainemmbell@aol.com wrote:
> > I think I had a big pink Raleigh that did the lemniscate thing...early
60's?
> >
> > Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> > (860) 523-9225
>
> Mine was a red Schwinn in the late thirties.
>
> By the fifties Raleighs had become the bike to have. Imported from
> Britain.
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> In a message dated 7/23/2003 10:58:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> slothenvypride7@yahoo.com writes:
>
> > Yowza! Don't know what that "Raleigh" object is, but this thread's
> > starting to turn me on!!
> >
>
> Just a bicycle you naughty gentlemen! ...and mom told me I could always
> trust sensitive post-modernists...
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pynchonoid <pynchonoid@yahoo.com>
> Subject: NN/NP "Elegant Gothic Lolita"
>
> Elegant Gothic Lolita
> Kyshah Hell
>
> An elegant Gothic Lolita, EGL or Gothic Lolita for
> short, is a Japanese teen or young adult who dresses
> in amazingly elaborate Gothic looking babydoll
> costumes. On the weekends these women walk the streets
> of Tokyo and Osaka and fill Yoyogi Park and Harajuku
> neighborhood where they pose for tourist▓s pictures
> and sit around looking pretty. They are beautiful,
> glamorous, doll-like manifestations of their favorite
> Visual Rock stars. [...]
>
> <http://www.morbidoutlook.com/fashion/articles/2002_07_gothiclolita.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3437
> ********************************
>
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