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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 6:03 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3419
>
> pynchon-l-digest Wednesday, July 16 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3419
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:18:58 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Foreword - Summary / Commentary (2)
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "(See my note to line 991.)" The only cross-reference in the
Foreword.
> > >
> > > Not so. He also points the reader to the *last* line in the Foreword,
but
> I don't have my book with me now...
> >
> > Yes, he does reference several lines in the poem but not any of his own
notes
> in the Commentary.
>
> I don't think that's correct, and I checked some time ago after I posted a
> reference to his Comment for the last (missing) line refered to in the
Foreword
> (follow that?). I'll check again and get back to you.
>
> DM
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:35:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreword - Summary / Commentary (3)
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > Page 16-17:
> > "another person ([Shade's] former literary agent) has wondered with a
sneer
> if Mrs. Shade's tremulous signature might not have been penned 'in some
> peculiar kind of red ink.'"
> >
> > Red is the color most associated with King Charles II (see 133 for
instance).
> Also, a "peculiar kind of red ink" implies a deal with the devil.
>
> As in "signed in blood." But in this case the blood would be Shade's.
>
> DM
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:41:03 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreword - Summary / Commentary (3)
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> >
> > "As mentioned, I think, in my last note to the poem." (pg 17). More
evidence
> the Foreword was written last.
>
> See? You found it for me. His "last note to the poem," in the
Commentary, is
> for line 1000, describes Shade's murder.
>
> DM
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:00:40 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Michael Joseph <mjoseph@rci.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: erratum: as a nightmare from which I am trying to awake
>
> not escape/ awake
>
> correction see above.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 16 Jul 2003 15:22:44 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 11:52, David Morris wrote:
> >
> > --- The Great Quail <quail@libyrinth.com> wrote:\
> > > Though I certainly feel that Nabokov treats K's sexual proclivities
with a
> > certain degree of mockery, the pathos is still there, under the surface.
> >
> > I remember reading that VN's brother was homosexual, and suffered some
form of
> > discrimination at the hands of his own family. I also remember reading
> > something about VN's disgust for homosexuality. I don't have the
specifics...
> >
> The biographies (Field, Boyd) mentioned it I would strongly assume.
> Haven't read any of them.
>
> I guess Nabokov was as conservative sexually as he was politically,
> despite the books he could turn out. To shock middle class morals..
>
> Believe he associated homosexuality with with revolution, which from his
> point of view was bad news. N of course saw revolution not as liberation
> but as slavery.
>
> How do Pynchon and Nabokov compare in the treatment of homosexuality?
>
> It's associated in both with the tyrannical. Blicero is tyrannical AND
> attractive. Kinbote is tyrannical and UNattractive.
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:53:47 -0400
> From: The Great Quail <quail@libyrinth.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory
>
> Paul writes,
>
> > How do Pynchon and Nabokov compare in the treatment of homosexuality?
> >
> > It's associated in both with the tyrannical. Blicero is tyrannical AND
> > attractive.
>
> I am not sure that one connection is enough to form a global association.
I
> see Blicero's sexuality functioning on two levels. One, it links him to
the
> early homosexual Nazis of the brown shirts, the SA. After all, one of the
> "stated" reasons for the Night of Long Knives was to purge the party of
this
> element, as embodied by Ernst Roehm. This of course ties in with the whole
> fetishistic aspect of Nazi camp, which I think is also a 1973 projection
> back upon Blicero. Secondly, by making Blicero homosexual, Pynchon could
> drive deeper the metaphors of power as fucking over people, such as the
> Herero and Gottfried...
>
> - --Quail
>
>
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:14:52 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: N and homosexuatity
>
> Interesting paper on N and homosexuality
>
> See last half dozen (or so) pages.
>
>
>
http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:X2X9c50aAx0J:www.reec.uiuc.edu/srl/Rozanov/etkind.pdf+nabokov+homosexuality&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
>
<http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:X2X9c50aAx0J:www.reec.uiuc.edu/srl/Roz
anov/etkind.pdf+nabokov+homosexuality&hl=en&ie=UTF-8>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:31:14 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dave Monroe <monrovius@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory
>
> Inerestingly, the surrealists could be a pretty
> homophobic lot as well--at any rate, the topic seemed
> to make Andre Breton uncomfortable ...
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/speech/surrealazs.shtml
>
> - --- Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> > Believe he associated homosexuality with with
> > revolution ...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 16 Jul 2003 17:27:22 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: N and homosexuatity
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 16:14, Paul Mackin wrote:
> > Interesting paper on N and homosexuality
> >
> > See last half dozen (or so) pages.
> >
> >
> >
http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:X2X9c50aAx0J:www.reec.uiuc.edu/srl/Rozanov/etkind.pdf+nabokov+homosexuality&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
> >
<http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:X2X9c50aAx0J:www.reec.uiuc.edu/srl/Roz
anov/etkind.pdf+nabokov+homosexuality&hl=en&ie=UTF-8>
> >
> >
>
> I should have noted that the paper centers on Rozanov. Nabokov's use of
> Rozanov is discussed toward the end. Moonlight People.
>
>
> Have been thinking more about the Keith's shocking theory.
>
> Nabokov despite his conservatism definitely had no sympathy for
> conventional morality and had no hesitancy about flouting it as he did
> in Lolita.
>
> Would he have planted a few suggestive lines in PF likely to catch the
> eye of the careful reader but which on further examination lead nowhere?
> (which many n-lister seem to see as the case)
>
>
> Perhaps the implication being that child sex with adult family members
> doesn't have the expected consequences after all.
>
> Would this be irresponsible?
>
> P.
>
> In a message dated 7/16/2003 5:28:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> paul.mackin@verizon.net writes:
>
>
> > Would he have planted a few suggestive lines in PF likely to catch the
> > eye of the careful reader but which on further examination lead nowhere?
> > (which many n-lister seem to see as the case)
> >
> >
> > Perhaps the implication being that child sex with adult family members
> > doesn't have the expected consequences after all.
> >
> > Would this be irresponsible?
> >
> >
>
> I noticed the lines in question right away, but was not too
> surprised by them, mainly because I thought it was a
> parody of a similar adventure to which Celine subjects young
> Ferdinand in his _Death on the Installment Plan_, which
> the scene resembles- at least in Manheim's translation. I'll
> post them later. I just figured it was another of the "planted"
> literary allusions with which the whole novel seems rife, and
> was more interested in trying to decide whether it was a
> conscious allusion by Shade, something inserted by Kinbote,
> a Nabokovian wink to the reader, or, some permutation of
> these. The possibilities begin to bloom, take on a life of
> their own, as it were, the more one tries to ascribe authorship.
>
> Of course, the resemblance to Celine's work could be
> merely coincidental.
>
>> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:22:48 -0700
> From: "Vincent A. Maeder" <vmaeder@cyhc-law.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> There's been this whole idea of Zembla being Kinbote's delusion relating
> to his imprisonment for the sexual molestation and murder of Shade's
> child. The whole bit with his previous life in the castle seemed so
> prison like, the homosexual acts (as was said to the level of a sexual
> circus) has the ring of a prison. Then there is the whole fantasy of
> escape through a secret passage that he had found in his childhood yet
> never used since (?!). This secret passage also possibly being
> metaphorical for the mental escape to a better time from his youth, or a
> desire to retain youth by raping a child, or for simple anal sex (note
> the descent down into the earth.
>
> V.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of Jasper Fidget
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 6:51 AM
> > To: pynchon-l@waste.org
> > Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The
> Epigraph)
> >
> > > From: David Morris [mailto:fqmorris@yahoo.com]
> > >
> > > --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > > > (Shade and Kinbote are mirrored in so many other ways, these
> > characters
> > > are
> > > practically begging to be read that way.)
> > >
> > > I'm not sure if Keith has made this claim, but Kunin has speculated
> that
> > > Kinbote/Shade are the same person, and the whole of Zembla and King
> > > Charles
> > > (and thus Kinbote) is a manifestation of Shade's mental illness
> stemming
> > > fron a
> > > childhood sexual trauma. But the Nabokov list is very skeptical...
> > >
> > > David Morris
> > >
> >
> > Andrew Field thought Zembla was a "homosexual fantasy" for Kinbote
> > (whatever
> > that is exactly), but that it had "no connection with the John Shade
> we
> > know
> > from the poem." (_The Life and Art of Vladimir Nabokov_, p. 343).
> > Certainly
> > for Kinbote there's a whole lotta loving going on in Onhava (he's even
> got
> > the palace set up as some kind of sexual circus at one point), and
> refers
> > often to "our manly Zemblan customs". Given all the homosexual detail
> and
> > escapades in the Commentary (not all of which is indicated to be
> > pederasty),
> > it's difficult to believe Zembla created by Shade. There's no
> indication
> > of
> > homosexuality in the poem (that I'm aware of anyway), although I
> suppose
> > Zembla as the land of negatives and reflections might be Shade's
> adamant
> > insistence on what he determinedly is *not*....
> >
> > I find it interesting that Kinbote's Zemblan sexual adventures seem to
> > meet
> > with less resistance and fewer difficulties than those in New Wye.
> For
> > instance, Bob breaking K's heart by cheating on him, Emerald
> apparently
> > resisting K's advances and subsequently mocking him, his discovery of
> the
> > gardener's impotency, even the trees getting in the way of his spying
> on
> > Shade (itself a kind of predatory sexual act). Perhaps this goes to
> > Field's
> > idea: that in Zembla the sex is abundant, free, and easy, and nobody
> gets
> > hurt...?
> >
> > ajaKasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:27:15 -0700
> From: "Vincent A. Maeder" <vmaeder@cyhc-law.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> Continued...
>
> So the point of this was that we are seeing the delusional diary of an
> imprisoned felon convicted of child rape and murder... (Sorry I didn't
> get to the point sooner...)
>
> V.
>
> > There's been this whole idea of Zembla being Kinbote's delusion
> relating
> > to his imprisonment for the sexual molestation and murder of Shade's
> > child. The whole bit with his previous life in the castle seemed so
> > prison like, the homosexual acts (as was said to the level of a sexual
> > circus) has the ring of a prison. Then there is the whole fantasy of
> > escape through a secret passage that he had found in his childhood yet
> > never used since (?!). This secret passage also possibly being
> > metaphorical for the mental escape to a better time from his youth, or
> a
> > desire to retain youth by raping a child, or for simple anal sex (note
> > the descent down into the earth.
> >
> > V.
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:02:14 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: N and homosexuatity
>
> Bandwraith@aol.com wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 7/16/2003 5:28:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > paul.mackin@verizon.net writes:
> >
> >
> >> Would he have planted a few suggestive lines in PF likely to catch the
> >> eye of the careful reader but which on further examination lead
nowhere?
> >> (which many n-lister seem to see as the case)
> >>
> >>
> >> Perhaps the implication being that child sex with adult family members
> >> doesn't have the expected consequences after all.
> >>
> >> Would this be irresponsible?
> >>
> >
> >
> > I noticed the lines in question right away, but was not too
> > surprised by them, mainly because I thought it was a
> > parody of a similar adventure to which Celine subjects young
> > Ferdinand in his _Death on the Installment Plan_, which
> > the scene resembles- at least in Manheim's translation. I'll
> > post them later. I just figured it was another of the "planted"
> > literary allusions with which the whole novel seems rife, and
> > was more interested in trying to decide whether it was a
> > conscious allusion by Shade, something inserted by Kinbote,
> > a Nabokovian wink to the reader, or, some permutation of
> > these. The possibilities begin to bloom, take on a life of
> > their own, as it were, the more one tries to ascribe authorship.
> >
> > Of course, the resemblance to Celine's work could be
> > merely coincidental.
> >
> > respectfully
>
>
> Sounds promising. The allusion, if it's an allusion, is in the form of a
> simile.. Something that is described in Shade's poem is "like"
> something that happened elsewhere. A little "like" or a lot "like?" In
> what respect "like?" Similarly traumatic? Similarly shameful? Similarly
> pleasurable/?
> Or similarly identical?
>
> And possibly apropos of nothing.
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3419
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 6:03 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3419
>
> pynchon-l-digest Wednesday, July 16 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3419
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:18:58 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Foreword - Summary / Commentary (2)
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "(See my note to line 991.)" The only cross-reference in the
Foreword.
> > >
> > > Not so. He also points the reader to the *last* line in the Foreword,
but
> I don't have my book with me now...
> >
> > Yes, he does reference several lines in the poem but not any of his own
notes
> in the Commentary.
>
> I don't think that's correct, and I checked some time ago after I posted a
> reference to his Comment for the last (missing) line refered to in the
Foreword
> (follow that?). I'll check again and get back to you.
>
> DM
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:35:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreword - Summary / Commentary (3)
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > Page 16-17:
> > "another person ([Shade's] former literary agent) has wondered with a
sneer
> if Mrs. Shade's tremulous signature might not have been penned 'in some
> peculiar kind of red ink.'"
> >
> > Red is the color most associated with King Charles II (see 133 for
instance).
> Also, a "peculiar kind of red ink" implies a deal with the devil.
>
> As in "signed in blood." But in this case the blood would be Shade's.
>
> DM
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:41:03 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreword - Summary / Commentary (3)
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> >
> > "As mentioned, I think, in my last note to the poem." (pg 17). More
evidence
> the Foreword was written last.
>
> See? You found it for me. His "last note to the poem," in the
Commentary, is
> for line 1000, describes Shade's murder.
>
> DM
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:00:40 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Michael Joseph <mjoseph@rci.rutgers.edu>
> Subject: erratum: as a nightmare from which I am trying to awake
>
> not escape/ awake
>
> correction see above.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 16 Jul 2003 15:22:44 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 11:52, David Morris wrote:
> >
> > --- The Great Quail <quail@libyrinth.com> wrote:\
> > > Though I certainly feel that Nabokov treats K's sexual proclivities
with a
> > certain degree of mockery, the pathos is still there, under the surface.
> >
> > I remember reading that VN's brother was homosexual, and suffered some
form of
> > discrimination at the hands of his own family. I also remember reading
> > something about VN's disgust for homosexuality. I don't have the
specifics...
> >
> The biographies (Field, Boyd) mentioned it I would strongly assume.
> Haven't read any of them.
>
> I guess Nabokov was as conservative sexually as he was politically,
> despite the books he could turn out. To shock middle class morals..
>
> Believe he associated homosexuality with with revolution, which from his
> point of view was bad news. N of course saw revolution not as liberation
> but as slavery.
>
> How do Pynchon and Nabokov compare in the treatment of homosexuality?
>
> It's associated in both with the tyrannical. Blicero is tyrannical AND
> attractive. Kinbote is tyrannical and UNattractive.
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:53:47 -0400
> From: The Great Quail <quail@libyrinth.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory
>
> Paul writes,
>
> > How do Pynchon and Nabokov compare in the treatment of homosexuality?
> >
> > It's associated in both with the tyrannical. Blicero is tyrannical AND
> > attractive.
>
> I am not sure that one connection is enough to form a global association.
I
> see Blicero's sexuality functioning on two levels. One, it links him to
the
> early homosexual Nazis of the brown shirts, the SA. After all, one of the
> "stated" reasons for the Night of Long Knives was to purge the party of
this
> element, as embodied by Ernst Roehm. This of course ties in with the whole
> fetishistic aspect of Nazi camp, which I think is also a 1973 projection
> back upon Blicero. Secondly, by making Blicero homosexual, Pynchon could
> drive deeper the metaphors of power as fucking over people, such as the
> Herero and Gottfried...
>
> - --Quail
>
>
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:14:52 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: N and homosexuatity
>
> Interesting paper on N and homosexuality
>
> See last half dozen (or so) pages.
>
>
>
http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:X2X9c50aAx0J:www.reec.uiuc.edu/srl/Rozanov/etkind.pdf+nabokov+homosexuality&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
>
<http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:X2X9c50aAx0J:www.reec.uiuc.edu/srl/Roz
anov/etkind.pdf+nabokov+homosexuality&hl=en&ie=UTF-8>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:31:14 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dave Monroe <monrovius@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory
>
> Inerestingly, the surrealists could be a pretty
> homophobic lot as well--at any rate, the topic seemed
> to make Andre Breton uncomfortable ...
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/speech/surrealazs.shtml
>
> - --- Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> > Believe he associated homosexuality with with
> > revolution ...
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 16 Jul 2003 17:27:22 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: N and homosexuatity
>
> On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 16:14, Paul Mackin wrote:
> > Interesting paper on N and homosexuality
> >
> > See last half dozen (or so) pages.
> >
> >
> >
http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:X2X9c50aAx0J:www.reec.uiuc.edu/srl/Rozanov/etkind.pdf+nabokov+homosexuality&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
> >
<http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:X2X9c50aAx0J:www.reec.uiuc.edu/srl/Roz
anov/etkind.pdf+nabokov+homosexuality&hl=en&ie=UTF-8>
> >
> >
>
> I should have noted that the paper centers on Rozanov. Nabokov's use of
> Rozanov is discussed toward the end. Moonlight People.
>
>
> Have been thinking more about the Keith's shocking theory.
>
> Nabokov despite his conservatism definitely had no sympathy for
> conventional morality and had no hesitancy about flouting it as he did
> in Lolita.
>
> Would he have planted a few suggestive lines in PF likely to catch the
> eye of the careful reader but which on further examination lead nowhere?
> (which many n-lister seem to see as the case)
>
>
> Perhaps the implication being that child sex with adult family members
> doesn't have the expected consequences after all.
>
> Would this be irresponsible?
>
> P.
>
> In a message dated 7/16/2003 5:28:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> paul.mackin@verizon.net writes:
>
>
> > Would he have planted a few suggestive lines in PF likely to catch the
> > eye of the careful reader but which on further examination lead nowhere?
> > (which many n-lister seem to see as the case)
> >
> >
> > Perhaps the implication being that child sex with adult family members
> > doesn't have the expected consequences after all.
> >
> > Would this be irresponsible?
> >
> >
>
> I noticed the lines in question right away, but was not too
> surprised by them, mainly because I thought it was a
> parody of a similar adventure to which Celine subjects young
> Ferdinand in his _Death on the Installment Plan_, which
> the scene resembles- at least in Manheim's translation. I'll
> post them later. I just figured it was another of the "planted"
> literary allusions with which the whole novel seems rife, and
> was more interested in trying to decide whether it was a
> conscious allusion by Shade, something inserted by Kinbote,
> a Nabokovian wink to the reader, or, some permutation of
> these. The possibilities begin to bloom, take on a life of
> their own, as it were, the more one tries to ascribe authorship.
>
> Of course, the resemblance to Celine's work could be
> merely coincidental.
>
>> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:22:48 -0700
> From: "Vincent A. Maeder" <vmaeder@cyhc-law.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> There's been this whole idea of Zembla being Kinbote's delusion relating
> to his imprisonment for the sexual molestation and murder of Shade's
> child. The whole bit with his previous life in the castle seemed so
> prison like, the homosexual acts (as was said to the level of a sexual
> circus) has the ring of a prison. Then there is the whole fantasy of
> escape through a secret passage that he had found in his childhood yet
> never used since (?!). This secret passage also possibly being
> metaphorical for the mental escape to a better time from his youth, or a
> desire to retain youth by raping a child, or for simple anal sex (note
> the descent down into the earth.
>
> V.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-pynchon-l@waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l@waste.org] On
> > Behalf Of Jasper Fidget
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 6:51 AM
> > To: pynchon-l@waste.org
> > Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The
> Epigraph)
> >
> > > From: David Morris [mailto:fqmorris@yahoo.com]
> > >
> > > --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > > > (Shade and Kinbote are mirrored in so many other ways, these
> > characters
> > > are
> > > practically begging to be read that way.)
> > >
> > > I'm not sure if Keith has made this claim, but Kunin has speculated
> that
> > > Kinbote/Shade are the same person, and the whole of Zembla and King
> > > Charles
> > > (and thus Kinbote) is a manifestation of Shade's mental illness
> stemming
> > > fron a
> > > childhood sexual trauma. But the Nabokov list is very skeptical...
> > >
> > > David Morris
> > >
> >
> > Andrew Field thought Zembla was a "homosexual fantasy" for Kinbote
> > (whatever
> > that is exactly), but that it had "no connection with the John Shade
> we
> > know
> > from the poem." (_The Life and Art of Vladimir Nabokov_, p. 343).
> > Certainly
> > for Kinbote there's a whole lotta loving going on in Onhava (he's even
> got
> > the palace set up as some kind of sexual circus at one point), and
> refers
> > often to "our manly Zemblan customs". Given all the homosexual detail
> and
> > escapades in the Commentary (not all of which is indicated to be
> > pederasty),
> > it's difficult to believe Zembla created by Shade. There's no
> indication
> > of
> > homosexuality in the poem (that I'm aware of anyway), although I
> suppose
> > Zembla as the land of negatives and reflections might be Shade's
> adamant
> > insistence on what he determinedly is *not*....
> >
> > I find it interesting that Kinbote's Zemblan sexual adventures seem to
> > meet
> > with less resistance and fewer difficulties than those in New Wye.
> For
> > instance, Bob breaking K's heart by cheating on him, Emerald
> apparently
> > resisting K's advances and subsequently mocking him, his discovery of
> the
> > gardener's impotency, even the trees getting in the way of his spying
> on
> > Shade (itself a kind of predatory sexual act). Perhaps this goes to
> > Field's
> > idea: that in Zembla the sex is abundant, free, and easy, and nobody
> gets
> > hurt...?
> >
> > ajaKasper
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:27:15 -0700
> From: "Vincent A. Maeder" <vmaeder@cyhc-law.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> Continued...
>
> So the point of this was that we are seeing the delusional diary of an
> imprisoned felon convicted of child rape and murder... (Sorry I didn't
> get to the point sooner...)
>
> V.
>
> > There's been this whole idea of Zembla being Kinbote's delusion
> relating
> > to his imprisonment for the sexual molestation and murder of Shade's
> > child. The whole bit with his previous life in the castle seemed so
> > prison like, the homosexual acts (as was said to the level of a sexual
> > circus) has the ring of a prison. Then there is the whole fantasy of
> > escape through a secret passage that he had found in his childhood yet
> > never used since (?!). This secret passage also possibly being
> > metaphorical for the mental escape to a better time from his youth, or
> a
> > desire to retain youth by raping a child, or for simple anal sex (note
> > the descent down into the earth.
> >
> > V.
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:02:14 -0400
> From: Paul Mackin <paul.mackin@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: N and homosexuatity
>
> Bandwraith@aol.com wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 7/16/2003 5:28:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > paul.mackin@verizon.net writes:
> >
> >
> >> Would he have planted a few suggestive lines in PF likely to catch the
> >> eye of the careful reader but which on further examination lead
nowhere?
> >> (which many n-lister seem to see as the case)
> >>
> >>
> >> Perhaps the implication being that child sex with adult family members
> >> doesn't have the expected consequences after all.
> >>
> >> Would this be irresponsible?
> >>
> >
> >
> > I noticed the lines in question right away, but was not too
> > surprised by them, mainly because I thought it was a
> > parody of a similar adventure to which Celine subjects young
> > Ferdinand in his _Death on the Installment Plan_, which
> > the scene resembles- at least in Manheim's translation. I'll
> > post them later. I just figured it was another of the "planted"
> > literary allusions with which the whole novel seems rife, and
> > was more interested in trying to decide whether it was a
> > conscious allusion by Shade, something inserted by Kinbote,
> > a Nabokovian wink to the reader, or, some permutation of
> > these. The possibilities begin to bloom, take on a life of
> > their own, as it were, the more one tries to ascribe authorship.
> >
> > Of course, the resemblance to Celine's work could be
> > merely coincidental.
> >
> > respectfully
>
>
> Sounds promising. The allusion, if it's an allusion, is in the form of a
> simile.. Something that is described in Shade's poem is "like"
> something that happened elsewhere. A little "like" or a lot "like?" In
> what respect "like?" Similarly traumatic? Similarly shameful? Similarly
> pleasurable/?
> Or similarly identical?
>
> And possibly apropos of nothing.
>
> P.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3419