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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 12:29 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3414
>
> pynchon-l-digest Tuesday, July 15 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3414
>
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:01:44 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
>
> Because that is the nature of the work.........clues tend to lead in
several
> directions at the same time....
>
> William Wordsworth - LINES, Composed a Few Miles Above Tintern Abbey on
> Revisiting the Banks of the Wye During a Tour, July 13, 1798....
>
> Norton Anthology note: Ruins of a medieval abbey situated in the valley of
> the river Wye, in Monmouthshire, noted for its scenery.......
>
>
> love,
> cfa
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:57 AM
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
>
>
> > On
> > > Behalf Of Malignd
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 8:15 AM
> > > To: pynchon-l@waste.org
> > > Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
> > >
> > > <<I'm not arguing that the college and town aren't
> > > modeled on Cornell and Ithaca, but why the elaborate
> > > dodge to direct our attention elsewhere?>>
> > >
> > > My guess on this is that all the pertinent places and
> > > place names (Cedarn, Utana) are fictional so that the
> > > possibility that Zembla might be other than something
> > > imagined by Kinbote, can't be disqualified on that
> > > basis; i.e., as the only made-up place (name) in the
> > > novel.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > So then Cedarn, Utana, Idoming = fantasy Northwest; Wordsmith, New Wye =
> > fantasy college and town; and Zembla = fantasy Russia. I think if one
> > accepts this, it changes the terms of the novel dramatically, in that
> > Kinbote may not be insane or extravagantly lying at all. In fact it
makes
> > these places much like the Vineland in Pynchon's novel: an imaginary
place
> > that stands directly for real places.
> >
> > Someone's mentioned the fact that K's royal identity is known to some
> > characters on the Wordsmith plane (according to K), and that Charles II
is
> > discussed by the faculty there (including K's resemblance to him). So
if
> > Zembla is a real place in the story-world, then either Kinbote is its
> exiled
> > king, or Kinbote is making *all* of this up (which ends up having little
> > difference), or Kinbote has taken the fact of his resemblance to Charles
> II
> > and pretended to *be* Charles II. I thinking answering that question
> might
> > be a key to answering many others.
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:08:22 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> >>>I'm not sure if Keith has made this claim, but Kunin has speculated
that
> Kinbote/Shade are the same person, and the whole of Zembla and King
Charles
> (and thus Kinbote) is a manifestation of Shade's mental illness stemming
> fron a
> childhood sexual trauma. But the Nabokov list is very skeptical...<<<
>
> I knew she had a Jekyll/Hyde theory, but not a sexual trauma theory. I'm
> with her on the latter, and open to the former.
>
> ------------------------------
>
and went =
> there's been a real change of consciousness" (7).
>
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:05:32 -0500> From: "Tim Strzechowski"
<dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: VLVL and NPPF: How Authors Achieve Humor (part 2)
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C34AD1.C5AF82E0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> . . . continuing:
> =20
> "The sharp-edged tone then shifts to a farcical one that once again =
> relaxes the reader as Zoyd quickly drives to the Cucumber Lounge where =
> the local TV station is ready to film his annual leap through a window, =
> a "publicly crazy" (3) stunt that allows Wheeler to get his government =
> stipend (and also keeps the government agents, Hector and Brock Vond, =
> informed of his whereabouts). Here, too, incongruities add to the =
> humor. Zoyd braces himself to run "empty-minded at the window" only to =
> find that there is hardly any impact. [...] The window, Zoyd finally =
> realizes, is made of candy, not glass. "He was no media innocent," =
> explains the narrator ironically, "he read TV Guide and had just =
> remembered an article about stunt windows made of clear sheet candy, =
> which would break but not cut. That's why this one had felt so funny" =
> (12).
>
> =20
> =20
> Is the humor in Chapter 1 solely for the purpose of putting our hapless =
> protagonist in an aburd Pynchonesque scenario (the "wine jellies" and =
> the "balloon pie fight" scenes in GR come to mind)? Or is there more to =
> it?
>
> Does the humor in Chapter 1 serve to further the satire in any way?
>
> Can the humor in Kinbote's "Foreward" be considered satirical? If so, =
> what are the various targets of satire? Toward what end, on Nabokov's =
> part?
>
> How do Pynchon and Nabokov manipulate language in their respective =
> novels to achieve their humor? Do they essentially use language the =
> same way (just varying the content based on the demands of the =
> narrative), or do they achieve humor through different means?
>
>
> * sidenote:
>
> For me, the funniest part of the "Foreward" is Kinbote's description of =
> himself, Shade, and the other profs in the faculty lounge, and the =
> dialogue that ensues; the funniest part of VL Chpt. 1 for me is the Log =
> Jam discussion. If I get time later, I might want to compare those two =
> scenes to see how the two authors use language to achieve the humor.
>
> Tim
>
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:07:37 -0400
> From: Toby G Levy <tobylevy@juno.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreward - Notes
>
> A couple of minor disagreements:
>
> Page 20
> "his abundant gray hair looked berimed in the sun"
>
> Jasper said it is an alternate spelling of "berhymed" but I say it is a
> verbification of rime as in ice coating. Shade is outside in the cold
> and his beard appeared to covered with ice.
>
> Page 22
> "Parthenocissus Hall"
>
> Parthenocissus is a grape vine, and as as such VN is either trying to
> give an image as a place where wine is drunk, where rumors are exchanged
> or an vine covered building...or all three?
>
> Toby
>
>>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:35:26 EDT
> From: Elainemmbell@aol.com
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Incest theme
>
> - --part1_114.26530fd2.2c45a36e_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 7/15/2003 10:05:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jasper@hatguild.org writes:
>
> > "L'if, lifeless tree! Your great Maybe, Rabelais:" (PF: 52)
> >
>
> Taxus baccata and Taxus brevifolia are members of the yew family
(Taxaceae).
> T. baccata is commonly known as the English yew; it's native to (you
guessed
> it) England, but has been introduced to some parts of Northeastern U.S.
(mainly
> Vermont). --from Cyberbotanica
>
> lines 507-510: You and I,/And she, then a mere tot, moved from New Wye/To
> Yewshade, in another, higher state./I love great mountains...
>
> So Yewshade is probably in Vermont. The Yew (L'if) also rather blatantly
> puns on puns on "You, Shade" and may have connotative significance because
of
> yews highly toxic/highly curative herbal powers. (another mirror)
Although
> research was already well advanced regarding yew's pharmaceutical wonders
in the
> early 60's, it's probably not that research that N would have been aware
of so
> much as the ancient uses of yew--capable of killing or saving life,
depending
> on how it was used.
>
> at all yewsful?
>
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:51:46 EDT
> From: Elainemmbell@aol.com
> Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20VLVL2=20(1)=20Zoyd's=20WORK=A0?=
>
> - --part1_17b.1d395eeb.2c45a742_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 7/15/2003 10:28:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mjoseph@rci.rutgers.edu writes:
>
> > The homoerotic or homosocial
> > overtones Tim pointed out in his very helpful apparatus seem more
> > immediately ascribable to a pre-sexual (so-called) phase of development
>
> also:(P7) "You and me, Zoyd, we're like Bigfoot. Times go on, we never
> change..."
> combines both the mythical element of a popular imaginary semi-human
creature
> and the pre-sexual notion of Peter Pan Lost Boys...they who never grow
up.
> So Zoyd and Buster and their ilk may or may not exist (in the sense of
being
> on the Grid) and certainly cannot expect to mature.
>
> Hot afternoon in Connecticut; anyone want to "draw me a, just a
lady's-size
> beer there?" (also P7)
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 12:11:18 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Malignd <malignd@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
>
> <<I don't think "fantasy" is the right word, but
> "fictional" is. But they don't need to "stand for"
> real places, just be (possibly) accepted as real in
> the world of the novel.>>
>
> Yes. There's nothing in the novel that asserts
> there's no Zembla; what is there re Zembla suggests or
> at least leaves open that there might be. So the
> possibility remains that Kinbote is the exiled king
> (rather unlikely, that); that there is a Zembla and he
> imagines himself the exiled king; or that there is a
> no Zembla but in Kinbote's mind.
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/15/2003 11:36:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> pynchonoid@yahoo.com writes:
>
> > Speaking of imposing one's own story on the text, what
> > could be more "Kinbotean" than imposing on this
> > discussion, no matter how slim the pretext, Malign's's
> > obsessive need to insult his/her interlocutors?
> >
>
> He can't help it. He has no Cicerone. oops. not the James list.
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
>> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3414
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 12:29 PM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3414
>
> pynchon-l-digest Tuesday, July 15 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3414
>
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:01:44 -0400
> From: "cfalbert" <calbert@hslboxmaster.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
>
> Because that is the nature of the work.........clues tend to lead in
several
> directions at the same time....
>
> William Wordsworth - LINES, Composed a Few Miles Above Tintern Abbey on
> Revisiting the Banks of the Wye During a Tour, July 13, 1798....
>
> Norton Anthology note: Ruins of a medieval abbey situated in the valley of
> the river Wye, in Monmouthshire, noted for its scenery.......
>
>
> love,
> cfa
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:57 AM
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
>
>
> > On
> > > Behalf Of Malignd
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 8:15 AM
> > > To: pynchon-l@waste.org
> > > Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
> > >
> > > <<I'm not arguing that the college and town aren't
> > > modeled on Cornell and Ithaca, but why the elaborate
> > > dodge to direct our attention elsewhere?>>
> > >
> > > My guess on this is that all the pertinent places and
> > > place names (Cedarn, Utana) are fictional so that the
> > > possibility that Zembla might be other than something
> > > imagined by Kinbote, can't be disqualified on that
> > > basis; i.e., as the only made-up place (name) in the
> > > novel.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > So then Cedarn, Utana, Idoming = fantasy Northwest; Wordsmith, New Wye =
> > fantasy college and town; and Zembla = fantasy Russia. I think if one
> > accepts this, it changes the terms of the novel dramatically, in that
> > Kinbote may not be insane or extravagantly lying at all. In fact it
makes
> > these places much like the Vineland in Pynchon's novel: an imaginary
place
> > that stands directly for real places.
> >
> > Someone's mentioned the fact that K's royal identity is known to some
> > characters on the Wordsmith plane (according to K), and that Charles II
is
> > discussed by the faculty there (including K's resemblance to him). So
if
> > Zembla is a real place in the story-world, then either Kinbote is its
> exiled
> > king, or Kinbote is making *all* of this up (which ends up having little
> > difference), or Kinbote has taken the fact of his resemblance to Charles
> II
> > and pretended to *be* Charles II. I thinking answering that question
> might
> > be a key to answering many others.
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:08:22 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> >>>I'm not sure if Keith has made this claim, but Kunin has speculated
that
> Kinbote/Shade are the same person, and the whole of Zembla and King
Charles
> (and thus Kinbote) is a manifestation of Shade's mental illness stemming
> fron a
> childhood sexual trauma. But the Nabokov list is very skeptical...<<<
>
> I knew she had a Jekyll/Hyde theory, but not a sexual trauma theory. I'm
> with her on the latter, and open to the former.
>
> ------------------------------
>
and went =
> there's been a real change of consciousness" (7).
>
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:05:32 -0500> From: "Tim Strzechowski"
<dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: VLVL and NPPF: How Authors Achieve Humor (part 2)
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C34AD1.C5AF82E0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> . . . continuing:
> =20
> "The sharp-edged tone then shifts to a farcical one that once again =
> relaxes the reader as Zoyd quickly drives to the Cucumber Lounge where =
> the local TV station is ready to film his annual leap through a window, =
> a "publicly crazy" (3) stunt that allows Wheeler to get his government =
> stipend (and also keeps the government agents, Hector and Brock Vond, =
> informed of his whereabouts). Here, too, incongruities add to the =
> humor. Zoyd braces himself to run "empty-minded at the window" only to =
> find that there is hardly any impact. [...] The window, Zoyd finally =
> realizes, is made of candy, not glass. "He was no media innocent," =
> explains the narrator ironically, "he read TV Guide and had just =
> remembered an article about stunt windows made of clear sheet candy, =
> which would break but not cut. That's why this one had felt so funny" =
> (12).
>
> =20
> =20
> Is the humor in Chapter 1 solely for the purpose of putting our hapless =
> protagonist in an aburd Pynchonesque scenario (the "wine jellies" and =
> the "balloon pie fight" scenes in GR come to mind)? Or is there more to =
> it?
>
> Does the humor in Chapter 1 serve to further the satire in any way?
>
> Can the humor in Kinbote's "Foreward" be considered satirical? If so, =
> what are the various targets of satire? Toward what end, on Nabokov's =
> part?
>
> How do Pynchon and Nabokov manipulate language in their respective =
> novels to achieve their humor? Do they essentially use language the =
> same way (just varying the content based on the demands of the =
> narrative), or do they achieve humor through different means?
>
>
> * sidenote:
>
> For me, the funniest part of the "Foreward" is Kinbote's description of =
> himself, Shade, and the other profs in the faculty lounge, and the =
> dialogue that ensues; the funniest part of VL Chpt. 1 for me is the Log =
> Jam discussion. If I get time later, I might want to compare those two =
> scenes to see how the two authors use language to achieve the humor.
>
> Tim
>
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:07:37 -0400
> From: Toby G Levy <tobylevy@juno.com>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreward - Notes
>
> A couple of minor disagreements:
>
> Page 20
> "his abundant gray hair looked berimed in the sun"
>
> Jasper said it is an alternate spelling of "berhymed" but I say it is a
> verbification of rime as in ice coating. Shade is outside in the cold
> and his beard appeared to covered with ice.
>
> Page 22
> "Parthenocissus Hall"
>
> Parthenocissus is a grape vine, and as as such VN is either trying to
> give an image as a place where wine is drunk, where rumors are exchanged
> or an vine covered building...or all three?
>
> Toby
>
>>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:35:26 EDT
> From: Elainemmbell@aol.com
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Incest theme
>
> - --part1_114.26530fd2.2c45a36e_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 7/15/2003 10:05:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jasper@hatguild.org writes:
>
> > "L'if, lifeless tree! Your great Maybe, Rabelais:" (PF: 52)
> >
>
> Taxus baccata and Taxus brevifolia are members of the yew family
(Taxaceae).
> T. baccata is commonly known as the English yew; it's native to (you
guessed
> it) England, but has been introduced to some parts of Northeastern U.S.
(mainly
> Vermont). --from Cyberbotanica
>
> lines 507-510: You and I,/And she, then a mere tot, moved from New Wye/To
> Yewshade, in another, higher state./I love great mountains...
>
> So Yewshade is probably in Vermont. The Yew (L'if) also rather blatantly
> puns on puns on "You, Shade" and may have connotative significance because
of
> yews highly toxic/highly curative herbal powers. (another mirror)
Although
> research was already well advanced regarding yew's pharmaceutical wonders
in the
> early 60's, it's probably not that research that N would have been aware
of so
> much as the ancient uses of yew--capable of killing or saving life,
depending
> on how it was used.
>
> at all yewsful?
>
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:51:46 EDT
> From: Elainemmbell@aol.com
> Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20VLVL2=20(1)=20Zoyd's=20WORK=A0?=
>
> - --part1_17b.1d395eeb.2c45a742_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 7/15/2003 10:28:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mjoseph@rci.rutgers.edu writes:
>
> > The homoerotic or homosocial
> > overtones Tim pointed out in his very helpful apparatus seem more
> > immediately ascribable to a pre-sexual (so-called) phase of development
>
> also:(P7) "You and me, Zoyd, we're like Bigfoot. Times go on, we never
> change..."
> combines both the mythical element of a popular imaginary semi-human
creature
> and the pre-sexual notion of Peter Pan Lost Boys...they who never grow
up.
> So Zoyd and Buster and their ilk may or may not exist (in the sense of
being
> on the Grid) and certainly cannot expect to mature.
>
> Hot afternoon in Connecticut; anyone want to "draw me a, just a
lady's-size
> beer there?" (also P7)
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 12:11:18 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Malignd <malignd@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
>
> <<I don't think "fantasy" is the right word, but
> "fictional" is. But they don't need to "stand for"
> real places, just be (possibly) accepted as real in
> the world of the novel.>>
>
> Yes. There's nothing in the novel that asserts
> there's no Zembla; what is there re Zembla suggests or
> at least leaves open that there might be. So the
> possibility remains that Kinbote is the exiled king
> (rather unlikely, that); that there is a Zembla and he
> imagines himself the exiled king; or that there is a
> no Zembla but in Kinbote's mind.
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/15/2003 11:36:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> pynchonoid@yahoo.com writes:
>
> > Speaking of imposing one's own story on the text, what
> > could be more "Kinbotean" than imposing on this
> > discussion, no matter how slim the pretext, Malign's's
> > obsessive need to insult his/her interlocutors?
> >
>
> He can't help it. He has no Cicerone. oops. not the James list.
> Elaine M.M. Bell, Writer
> (860) 523-9225
>> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3414
> ********************************
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to waste@waste.org
> with "unsubscribe pynchon-l-digest" in the message body.