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Fw: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3413 PALE FIRE
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----- Original Message -----
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 9:51 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3413
>
> pynchon-l-digest Tuesday, July 15 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3413
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:34:17 -0400
> From: Terrance <lycidas2@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Incest theme
>
> > And as Ms. Kunin has already noted, the insect/incest word play is
explicitly
> > used by Van Veen in "Ada" because his lover/sister is an avid insect
> > collector/scholar.
>
> Oh! I get it! An anagram (insect/incest). That's the Dostoyevsky
> connection, right?
> Thank Log we figured that one out. Can't pull nothing over on us. No,
> sir, we are just peeping-pats on the job. The brother get acquainted.
> How familiar do they get?
> Speaking of Froidian figs creeping, the tendrils.
>
>
> And I thought I was just having another fit of somnolence.
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:57:46 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
>
> On
> > Behalf Of Malignd
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 8:15 AM
> > To: pynchon-l@waste.org
> > Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
> >
> > <<I'm not arguing that the college and town aren't
> > modeled on Cornell and Ithaca, but why the elaborate
> > dodge to direct our attention elsewhere?>>
> >
> > My guess on this is that all the pertinent places and
> > place names (Cedarn, Utana) are fictional so that the
> > possibility that Zembla might be other than something
> > imagined by Kinbote, can't be disqualified on that
> > basis; i.e., as the only made-up place (name) in the
> > novel.
> >
> >
>
> So then Cedarn, Utana, Idoming = fantasy Northwest; Wordsmith, New Wye =
> fantasy college and town; and Zembla = fantasy Russia. I think if one
> accepts this, it changes the terms of the novel dramatically, in that
> Kinbote may not be insane or extravagantly lying at all. In fact it makes
> these places much like the Vineland in Pynchon's novel: an imaginary place
> that stands directly for real places.
>
> Someone's mentioned the fact that K's royal identity is known to some
> characters on the Wordsmith plane (according to K), and that Charles II is
> discussed by the faculty there (including K's resemblance to him). So if
> Zembla is a real place in the story-world, then either Kinbote is its
exiled
> king, or Kinbote is making *all* of this up (which ends up having little
> difference), or Kinbote has taken the fact of his resemblance to Charles
II
> and pretended to *be* Charles II. I thinking answering that question
might
> be a key to answering many others.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:54:03 -0700
> From: Mary Krimmel <mary@krimmel.net>
> Subject: Re: What means Zoyd?
>
>>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:19:32 -0400
> From: Toby G Levy <tobylevy@juno.com>
> Subject: VLVL2 (1): Narrator's Voice
>
> The one thing that leapt out at me after I read the introduction to Pale
> Fire one day and the first section of Vineland the next day was the
> vocabulary levels. As with GR and M&D, I needed the dictionary at hand
> as I read through the intro to PF. Sure, most of the words were
> decipherable through context, and some were halfway familiar, but reading
> with the dictionary open for me adds another dimension of enjoyment to a
> work of literature. The startling thing to me was that there were NO
> words that needed a dictionary in the opening section to Vineland. I've
> read the book at least a half a dozen times before and this never crossed
> my mind, but I think this is where much of the disrespect that Vineland
> gets from Pynchon fans comes from, the fact that any reasonably read
> tenth grader could cruise through this novel.
>
> I found the narrator's voice in Vineland to be similar to that of the
> narrator in Gravity's Rainbow, a warm caring person aghast at the events
> he is describing.
>
> I think the cries that "Pynchon has lost it!" that were heard after the
> release of Vineland have to do with the vocabulary. But it seems pretty
> clear to me that Pynchon made a conscious choice to write in a more
> vernacular tone.
>
> Toby
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:04:39 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Hosting Problem for Canto 3
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C34AC0.E2FF3C20
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> I received a phone call from my dept. chairman this morning. To make a =
> long story short, I've been "asked" to contribute to some committee work =
> in the upcoming weeks before classes begin ... an obligation I neither =
> expected, nor, frankly, wanted.
>
> As a result, I will be unable to host the upcoming week of NPPF =
> discussion of Canto Three (August 4th). Realizing this is last-minute, =
> I sincerely apologize for the inconvenience. However, it's an obvious =
> matter of priorities that I'm sure anyone would understand.
>
> Can anyone take my hosting spot for that week?
>
> Again, sincerest apologies!!!!!
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim Strzechowski
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:03:25 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Preliminary: The Epigraph
>
> >>>Your interpretation is very daring, Keith. I'm really impressed and I
> think
> it shouldn't be dismissed too easily. Boyd's "theory" is daring as well,
but
> it explains the correspondences between poem and commentary, something
which
> yours does not. Your clues are all from the poem.<<<
>
> I'm just studying the first two cantos at present. Haven't made is any
> further. The whole thing may fall apart as I proceed. Plus I've gotten
laid.
>
>> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:11:43 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Preliminary: The Epigraph
>
> > Plus I've gotten laid.
> >
> >
>
> See what happens when you think so much about me and my boxers!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:14:35 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > (Shade and Kinbote are mirrored in so many other ways, these characters
are
> practically begging to be read that way.)
>
> I'm not sure if Keith has made this claim, but Kunin has speculated that
> Kinbote/Shade are the same person, and the whole of Zembla and King
Charles
> (and thus Kinbote) is a manifestation of Shade's mental illness stemming
fron a
> childhood sexual trauma. But the Nabokov list is very skeptical...
>
> David Morris
>
>> ------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:32:44 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > So then Cedarn, Utana, Idoming = fantasy Northwest; Wordsmith, New Wye =
> fantasy college and town; and Zembla = fantasy Russia. I think if one
accepts
> this, it changes the terms of the novel dramatically, in that Kinbote may
not
> be insane or extravagantly lying at all. In fact it makes these places
much
> like the Vineland in Pynchon's novel: an imaginary place that stands
directly
> for real places.
>
> I don't think "fantasy" is the right word, but "fictional" is. But they
don't
> need to "stand for" real places, just be (possibly) accepted as real in
the
> world of the novel.
>
> > Someone's mentioned the fact that K's royal identity is known to some
> characters on the Wordsmith plane (according to K), and that Charles II is
> discussed by the faculty there (including K's resemblance to him). So if
> Zembla is a real place in the story-world, then either Kinbote is its
exiled
> king, or Kinbote is making *all* of this up (which ends up having little
> difference), or Kinbote has taken the fact of his resemblance to Charles
II and
> pretended to *be* Charles II. I thinking answering that question might be
a
> key to answering many others.
>
> This is what I've been calling the "surface" story, which is believable on
the
> surface. But since the entire account is told to us by Kinbote, then even
> conversations with others dicussing a "real" Zembla can be his
fabrications.
> It is unresolvable, but infinitely up for play.
>
> David Morris
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:54:28 +0100
> From: "James Kyllo" <jkyllo@clara.net>
> Subject: Re: The Introduction - Golconda
>
> Also, a painting by Rene Magritte, which brings to (my) mind the
description
> of Gradus in the notes to lines 131-2
>
> http://www.artinvest2000.com/magritte_golconda.htm
>
> James
>
>
>
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Kyllo" <jkyllo@clara.net>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>; "Toby G Levy" <tobylevy@juno.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 3:12 PM
> Subject: Re: The Introduction - Golconda
>
>
> > > 3. Golconda (17)
> > >
> >
> > The capital of a 16th Century Muslim sultanate. The name has come to be
> > associated with great wealth. (so my dictionary claims)
> >
> > James
> >
> > http://www.golconda.net/
> >
> > http://www.meadev.nic.in/tourism/forts/golconda.htm
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3413
> ********************************
>
From: "pynchon-l-digest" <owner-pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
To: <pynchon-l-digest@waste.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 9:51 AM
Subject: pynchon-l-digest V2 #3413
>
> pynchon-l-digest Tuesday, July 15 2003 Volume 02 : Number
3413
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:34:17 -0400
> From: Terrance <lycidas2@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF - Incest theme
>
> > And as Ms. Kunin has already noted, the insect/incest word play is
explicitly
> > used by Van Veen in "Ada" because his lover/sister is an avid insect
> > collector/scholar.
>
> Oh! I get it! An anagram (insect/incest). That's the Dostoyevsky
> connection, right?
> Thank Log we figured that one out. Can't pull nothing over on us. No,
> sir, we are just peeping-pats on the job. The brother get acquainted.
> How familiar do they get?
> Speaking of Froidian figs creeping, the tendrils.
>
>
> And I thought I was just having another fit of somnolence.
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:57:46 -0400
> From: "Jasper Fidget" <jasper@hatguild.org>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
>
> On
> > Behalf Of Malignd
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 8:15 AM
> > To: pynchon-l@waste.org
> > Subject: Re: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
> >
> > <<I'm not arguing that the college and town aren't
> > modeled on Cornell and Ithaca, but why the elaborate
> > dodge to direct our attention elsewhere?>>
> >
> > My guess on this is that all the pertinent places and
> > place names (Cedarn, Utana) are fictional so that the
> > possibility that Zembla might be other than something
> > imagined by Kinbote, can't be disqualified on that
> > basis; i.e., as the only made-up place (name) in the
> > novel.
> >
> >
>
> So then Cedarn, Utana, Idoming = fantasy Northwest; Wordsmith, New Wye =
> fantasy college and town; and Zembla = fantasy Russia. I think if one
> accepts this, it changes the terms of the novel dramatically, in that
> Kinbote may not be insane or extravagantly lying at all. In fact it makes
> these places much like the Vineland in Pynchon's novel: an imaginary place
> that stands directly for real places.
>
> Someone's mentioned the fact that K's royal identity is known to some
> characters on the Wordsmith plane (according to K), and that Charles II is
> discussed by the faculty there (including K's resemblance to him). So if
> Zembla is a real place in the story-world, then either Kinbote is its
exiled
> king, or Kinbote is making *all* of this up (which ends up having little
> difference), or Kinbote has taken the fact of his resemblance to Charles
II
> and pretended to *be* Charles II. I thinking answering that question
might
> be a key to answering many others.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:54:03 -0700
> From: Mary Krimmel <mary@krimmel.net>
> Subject: Re: What means Zoyd?
>
>>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:19:32 -0400
> From: Toby G Levy <tobylevy@juno.com>
> Subject: VLVL2 (1): Narrator's Voice
>
> The one thing that leapt out at me after I read the introduction to Pale
> Fire one day and the first section of Vineland the next day was the
> vocabulary levels. As with GR and M&D, I needed the dictionary at hand
> as I read through the intro to PF. Sure, most of the words were
> decipherable through context, and some were halfway familiar, but reading
> with the dictionary open for me adds another dimension of enjoyment to a
> work of literature. The startling thing to me was that there were NO
> words that needed a dictionary in the opening section to Vineland. I've
> read the book at least a half a dozen times before and this never crossed
> my mind, but I think this is where much of the disrespect that Vineland
> gets from Pynchon fans comes from, the fact that any reasonably read
> tenth grader could cruise through this novel.
>
> I found the narrator's voice in Vineland to be similar to that of the
> narrator in Gravity's Rainbow, a warm caring person aghast at the events
> he is describing.
>
> I think the cries that "Pynchon has lost it!" that were heard after the
> release of Vineland have to do with the vocabulary. But it seems pretty
> clear to me that Pynchon made a conscious choice to write in a more
> vernacular tone.
>
> Toby
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:04:39 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Hosting Problem for Canto 3
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> - ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C34AC0.E2FF3C20
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> I received a phone call from my dept. chairman this morning. To make a =
> long story short, I've been "asked" to contribute to some committee work =
> in the upcoming weeks before classes begin ... an obligation I neither =
> expected, nor, frankly, wanted.
>
> As a result, I will be unable to host the upcoming week of NPPF =
> discussion of Canto Three (August 4th). Realizing this is last-minute, =
> I sincerely apologize for the inconvenience. However, it's an obvious =
> matter of priorities that I'm sure anyone would understand.
>
> Can anyone take my hosting spot for that week?
>
> Again, sincerest apologies!!!!!
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Tim Strzechowski
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:03:25 -0700
> From: "s~Z" <keithsz@concentric.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Preliminary: The Epigraph
>
> >>>Your interpretation is very daring, Keith. I'm really impressed and I
> think
> it shouldn't be dismissed too easily. Boyd's "theory" is daring as well,
but
> it explains the correspondences between poem and commentary, something
which
> yours does not. Your clues are all from the poem.<<<
>
> I'm just studying the first two cantos at present. Haven't made is any
> further. The whole thing may fall apart as I proceed. Plus I've gotten
laid.
>
>> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:11:43 -0500
> From: "Tim Strzechowski" <dedalus204@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: NPPF: Preliminary: The Epigraph
>
> > Plus I've gotten laid.
> >
> >
>
> See what happens when you think so much about me and my boxers!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:14:35 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF: Keith's Shocking Theory (was Preliminary: The Epigraph)
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > (Shade and Kinbote are mirrored in so many other ways, these characters
are
> practically begging to be read that way.)
>
> I'm not sure if Keith has made this claim, but Kunin has speculated that
> Kinbote/Shade are the same person, and the whole of Zembla and King
Charles
> (and thus Kinbote) is a manifestation of Shade's mental illness stemming
fron a
> childhood sexual trauma. But the Nabokov list is very skeptical...
>
> David Morris
>
>> ------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:32:44 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Morris <fqmorris@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: NPPF - Foreword - Notes (1)
>
> - --- Jasper Fidget <jasper@hatguild.org> wrote:
> > So then Cedarn, Utana, Idoming = fantasy Northwest; Wordsmith, New Wye =
> fantasy college and town; and Zembla = fantasy Russia. I think if one
accepts
> this, it changes the terms of the novel dramatically, in that Kinbote may
not
> be insane or extravagantly lying at all. In fact it makes these places
much
> like the Vineland in Pynchon's novel: an imaginary place that stands
directly
> for real places.
>
> I don't think "fantasy" is the right word, but "fictional" is. But they
don't
> need to "stand for" real places, just be (possibly) accepted as real in
the
> world of the novel.
>
> > Someone's mentioned the fact that K's royal identity is known to some
> characters on the Wordsmith plane (according to K), and that Charles II is
> discussed by the faculty there (including K's resemblance to him). So if
> Zembla is a real place in the story-world, then either Kinbote is its
exiled
> king, or Kinbote is making *all* of this up (which ends up having little
> difference), or Kinbote has taken the fact of his resemblance to Charles
II and
> pretended to *be* Charles II. I thinking answering that question might be
a
> key to answering many others.
>
> This is what I've been calling the "surface" story, which is believable on
the
> surface. But since the entire account is told to us by Kinbote, then even
> conversations with others dicussing a "real" Zembla can be his
fabrications.
> It is unresolvable, but infinitely up for play.
>
> David Morris
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:54:28 +0100
> From: "James Kyllo" <jkyllo@clara.net>
> Subject: Re: The Introduction - Golconda
>
> Also, a painting by Rene Magritte, which brings to (my) mind the
description
> of Gradus in the notes to lines 131-2
>
> http://www.artinvest2000.com/magritte_golconda.htm
>
> James
>
>
>
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Kyllo" <jkyllo@clara.net>
> To: <pynchon-l@waste.org>; "Toby G Levy" <tobylevy@juno.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 3:12 PM
> Subject: Re: The Introduction - Golconda
>
>
> > > 3. Golconda (17)
> > >
> >
> > The capital of a 16th Century Muslim sultanate. The name has come to be
> > associated with great wealth. (so my dictionary claims)
> >
> > James
> >
> > http://www.golconda.net/
> >
> > http://www.meadev.nic.in/tourism/forts/golconda.htm
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #3413
> ********************************
>